Phones are useful but also sometimes hard to put down.
Satoshi-K/Getty Images
Ping! Another episode of Brains On just dropped! And it’s all about phones: how they help us, why they’re so hard to put down – and how to have a balanced relationship with them.
In this episode, Molly and co-host Linden do a deep dive on phone use. They’ll chat with an expert about whether screens are bad for us and hear from some teenagers about how they really feel about their phones! Meanwhile, Marc takes his camels Humpty and Dumpty to a phone-free picnic, and Dwayne the Brain demonstrates the powerful connection between phones and dopamine. All that, plus a stumper of a mystery sound!
We’ve been thinking about our phones a lot here at Brains On – so we started this new thing called Analog August, a month-long campaign to unplug our phones and get out in the world. If this episode inspires, we hope you and your family will join in the fun, and do your best to use your phones less! Parents can attend our virtual event about kids and phones on Thursday, August 15th from 12pm PT / 2pm CT / 3pm ET and sign up for our newsletter of ideas for phone-free adventures and tips on finding a healthy screen-life balance. Read more here.
Featured experts:
Julia Storm is a digital wellness specialist, educator, and advocate. She helps families work through issues around tech.
Jacqueline Nesi is an Assistant Professor of Psychiatry and Human Behavior at Brown University and a Clinical Psychologist at Rhode Island Hospital. She specializes in issues affecting kids and teens.
Dr. Devorah Heitner is the author of Growing Up in Public and Screenwise. Find her here!
Audio Transcript
Download transcript (PDF)
SUBJECT 1: You're listening to Brains On!, where we're serious about being curious.
SUBJECT 2: Brains On! is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation.
MARC: Easy, Humpty. Easy. Just got it pack one more thing.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hey, Marc? Um, what's with the camel?
LINDEN: And what's with that mountain of stuff strapped to the camel?
MARC: Oh Hey, Molly and Linden. This is Humpty. He's just carrying my supplies for our phone-free picnic.
[GRUNTS]
LINDEN: All that for one picnic? I'm just bringing chips and a sandwich.
MARC: Oh no. This isn't my food carrying camel. That's Dumpty over there. Hey, Dumpty.
[GRUNTS]
Humpty here is carrying all the old school versions of the things on my phone, so I won't miss them during our phone-free picnic.
MOLLY BLOOM: That seems like a lot for just one picnic.
MARC: I know. So fun, right? I brought a record player and a hundred of my favorite records so we have music, see. Plus, maps in case we need directions. A compass, a calculator, a thermometer, barometer, alarm clock, board games, photo albums, a list of all my friends, a typewriter in case I suddenly want to draft a letter to my friends, and a homing pigeon to deliver that letter to my friends.
[COOING]
Fly, my winged wonder, fly.
MOLLY BLOOM: You know, Marc, I don't think you'll need all this stuff. Why not just hang out and be in the moment?
LINDEN: Yeah, it's fun to do things analog, but it's also fun to just experience things with your senses. Feel the sun, hear the birds, smell the grass.
MARC: You're right. I may have overdone it.
LINDEN: And besides, Humpty looks a little strained.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, I think he wants you to unpack him.
[GRUNTS]
Is a camel even supposed to be carrying that much stuff?
MARC: Good question. Mhm, I don't actually know the weight limit of a camel. Let me check the set of encyclopedias strapped to Humpty's hindquarters. Let's see here. Caftans, crafts, camels.
[GRUNTS]
Oh sorry, Humpty. Unpack first, lookup fact second.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Brains On! from APM Studios. I'm Molly Bloom, and my co-host today is Linden from Bend, Oregon. Hi, Linden.
LINDEN: Hi, Molly. That phone-free picnic was so fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: I know. I just wish Humpty and Dumpty would have left some chips for the rest of us.
LINDEN: Who knew camels love Cool Ranch so much? If I knew, I would have brought more.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. Well, hump sight is 20/20. Speaking of the phone-free picnic, today's episode was inspired by some questions you sent us.
LINDEN: Yeah. I wanted to know why phones and screens are so hard to put down. And are they bad for you?
MOLLY BLOOM: So this is a big topic. There are lots of screens in our lives, but phones are the most common, so we're just going to focus on those today. So, Linden, what got you thinking about this?
LINDEN: Um, I honestly for a long time, I've just really been interested in having a phone. There's a lot of cool stuff that you can do with it, and my mom's not super keen on it. And so I was wondering, is it bad for you. And yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: So you are 11 years old.
LINDEN: Yes, I am 11 years old.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what grade are you going into?
LINDEN: Sixth grade.
MOLLY BLOOM: And so why do you want a phone?
LINDEN: I want a phone. I already have a watch where I can make calls and texts, but I want a phone to be able to play games and use social media and watch stuff.
MOLLY BLOOM: And so your watch, is it a watch that, has the internet on it or is it one of those watches that's more limited in what it can do?
LINDEN: It has the internet, but my mom can set parental controls on it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Got it. And so do your friends have phones?
LINDEN: Yes, some of my friends do have phones, but some of them do not.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, like, would you say, it's like half and half, or more with more without?
LINDEN: I think more of them have without. But the kids that are without phones are getting them soon, I think.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you know they're getting them or is this just like the talk of your friends just figuring out when everyone's going to get a phone.
LINDEN: It's just what they're saying. I don't know if it's true or not.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. Excellent. So one reason this topic is tough is because kids get a lot of mixed messages.
LINDEN: Yeah. Our parents sometimes spend a lot of time on their phones, but then they say they don't want us to have one. What's up with that?
MOLLY BLOOM: This is a hot topic in a lot of families, including mine. So today, we're going to look at this tricky subject and explore what we know and don't know about it. So since this is a discussion happening in lots of families, we thought it made sense is to start by bringing in your mom. Hi, Corey.
COREY: Hi.
MOLLY BLOOM: So Corey, Linden was just telling me that she wants a phone. How do you feel about that?
COREY: This is a tough one for us because I actually work in the tech industry. And I make apps for phones. And so I have a lot of inside understanding of how apps work and, what keeps people drawn to them and using them.
MOLLY BLOOM: So when Linden says, mom, I want a phone, what is your initial reaction?
COREY: No.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Linden, how do you feel about your mom's phone use? How much does she use her phone?
LINDEN: She uses her phone a lot, but I know it's mostly for work. But she also, uses her phone to read the news and go on social media, too.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Corey, how do you feel about your own phone use? I mean, I know I personally feel like I would love to use my phone less and I know I need to, and I feel like I use it too much. And my daughter is always calling me out on it, being like, mom, put your phone down. So I'm working on that. And I'm just wondering, like how you feel about your own? Do you feel like you've got it under control?
COREY: I feel like I use my phone a lot, for sure. I don't feel like it is in any way getting in the way of my life in any negative way. Except that it is presenting a double standard to our kids who we tell them they can only have a certain amount of screen time, and when they use screens for too long, it changes their behavior.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Linden, you've heard what your mom thinks. What do you think about, her thoughts about guys having phones?
LINDEN: I definitely, I know she works with them, so she knows what she's talking about. But I also sometimes feel left out not having a phone. And I wish I could have one. And I know if I did get one now, there would be a lot of rules around it. And I think I would be OK with it.
MOLLY BLOOM: And Linden, do you feel like if you had a phone that you understand what it would be like to have that thing there all the time saying, use me, use me. Like, do you feel like you are prepared to say no to it sometimes?
LINDEN: I feel like if I got a phone I would be able to say no to it because I would use to be part of the group that didn't have it and know what it felt like when the other people were on their phones. But then I also would be like, oh I just got a notification. I want to check it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, those notifications are sneaky. So Corey, what is your favorite thing about your phone?
COREY: Ooh, good question. I think my favorite thing about having a phone is just the immediate access to any information I want at any moment. I think that's what gets me most excited is, any question I have, I can just ask my phone. And then I have the answer right away.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what's your least favorite thing about your phone?
COREY: I think, well, the least favorite thing is just how much public life has changed. And I can't help but notice that when I'm out and about and seeing how many people just have their heads down and they're on their phone or any time there's an awkward situation socially, people, to get out of it, just like instinctively take out their phones. And so I just remember a time before we had phones when things were different, when people got together. And now it feels like everyone's face is just buried in their phones all the time.
MOLLY BLOOM: So one of the experts we spoke to for this episode had an interesting way to think about this. Her name is Julia Storm, and she helps families work through issues around tech. She said, for parents, a kid getting a phone is like having a stranger move into your house.
JULIA STORM: And not only did they move in, but to us, sometimes it feels like they moved into your room, and they started giving you advice, and they started telling you it was cool. And they started to take on more of the role that we used to take on. And so for us, that device, which feels in some ways like all these other people's thoughts and opinions and ideas coming at you, it makes us nervous because we don't know what you're learning on there and we don't always how to keep you safe on there.
MOLLY BLOOM: So does that ring true to either of you?
COREY: Definitely rings true to me. That's one of the reasons that I don't want Linden to have a phone. Is because I know from my own experience, we all know, right? You're on your phone, you see all of the different information coming at you, all of the different opinions, the different tones people are using on there.
And as adults, we have the tools and the context to understand what to listen to, and what to ignore, and who to trust, and how to be skeptical. And I just don't think that kids are capable of that yet. So there's just so much information coming at them and they might choose to believe the wrong thing or the hurtful thing, and that really scares me.
MOLLY BLOOM: What do you think, Linden? Do you think you have a sense of, if you were to see stuff online, like how to understand if it's true or not? Is that something they teach you in school or your parents tell you about?
LINDEN: They definitely teach that to me in school. And my mom has talked to me about it a lot. I feel like I would know, but I would still remember the negative stuff.
MOLLY BLOOM: So listeners at home, feel free to pause this episode and talk about whether anyone said anything today that you hadn't thought of before. Was there anything the other side said that stood out to you? How about you, Linden and Corey? Anything the other one said that stood out to you?
LINDEN: Um, I definitely, I agree with my mom. I agree with the part where she said kids might not have the right mindset to choose what to listen to and what not to.
MOLLY BLOOM: How about you, Corey?
COREY: The thing that stands out and really resonates with me honestly about where Linden's coming from is, I still remember vividly what it's like to be a kid and to think that my parents don't understand, especially when they made rules that meant that I didn't get something that I wanted until I was older, when I felt like I was ready for it right now. So that really resonates with me and I empathize with that. And I don't want to be that parent [CHUCKLES]. But at the same time, I feel like this one's really important.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. Being a parent is hard.
COREY: Yeah, it is.
[CHUCKLES]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, thank you so much for talking about this with us, Corey.
COREY: You're welcome. My pleasure.
LINDEN: Yeah thanks, mom.
(SINGING) Brains On!
MOLLY BLOOM: Today, we're talking about phones and how kids and parents feel about them. One reason we use phones is because they are super useful. We can use them to look up cool camel facts. Like, did you know, that camels have three sets of eyelids and two rows of eyelashes to keep sand out of their eyes?
LINDEN: Whoa. We can also use phones to look up directions, chat with our friends, or take photos.
MOLLY BLOOM: But some scientists think there's another reason why it's easy to get glued to a phone. Which brings us back to one of your questions, Linden.
LINDEN: Why are phones so hard to put down?
MOLLY BLOOM: We actually did an episode about this a while back. Head to brainson.org and search Smartphones to find it. Turns out, one reason why phones are tough to put down has to do with a chemical in your brain called dopamine.
LINDEN: I've heard of dopamine. It's like a little messenger your brain uses to send signals. And it does a lot, from motivating us to helping us move.
MOLLY BLOOM: To help us understand how dopamine and phones work together, let's bring in our favorite talking brain, Dwayne.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Dwayne The Brain here. Ready to crank this episode up to 11.
MOLLY BLOOM: Dwayne is going to help us with a little demonstration.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Of cartwheels? You got it. Watch me go.
[CRASH]
That was broken when I got here.
MOLLY BLOOM: Actually, I thought you'd just help us by demonstrating a brains perspective in all of this.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Oh gotcha. Can do.
LINDEN: Dopamine is sometimes called the reward chemical, or pleasure chemical.
MOLLY BLOOM: Dopamine has lots of jobs. But one of them is to make us feel good when we do something that's good for us, like eating, being social, or trying something new.
LINDEN: Like if we're playing a fun game of soccer with friends. Right, Dwayne?
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Oh yeah. Big time dopamine rush. Especially when I score this goal.
LINDEN: Wait, where'd you get that soccer ball?
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Dwayne shoots, and scores.
[CRASH]
I'll clean that up later.
MOLLY BLOOM: We also get a boost of dopamine when we eat delicious foods like this avocado, bacon, cheeseburger.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Yum. Don't mind if I do.
[CHOMP]
LINDEN: Our brains like dopamine. When we do something that gives us dopamine, our brains say, hey, let's do that thing again.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Yeah, like this. Hey, give me another burger, please.
MOLLY BLOOM: Here you go.
[CHOMP]
We often get dopamine when we use our phones too.
LINDEN: Maybe it's because we got a message from a friend, or we saw a funny meme, or played a video game we love.
MOLLY BLOOM: All these things can give your brain a dopamine boost, which will make your brain want to keep using the phone. It becomes a cycle.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: It's as if I were there in your head saying, do it again. Do it again, and again, and again. Please.
MOLLY BLOOM: Exactly. And unlike a soccer game with friends, or a cheeseburger, a phone is almost always nearby. So your brain is reminded of it all the time.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Yeah, us brains will see a phone and think, ooh, let's just check it real quick and get some more dopamine. Come on, just one little scroll. And next thing you know, you've been staring at the screen for half an hour. Sorry about that.
LINDEN: Exactly. So phones give us enough dopamine to keep our brains asking for more.
MOLLY BLOOM: Thanks for helping us explain this from a brains perspective, Dwayne.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: No problem. Now, if you'll excuse me, I got some important strength training to do.
LINDEN: You lift weights?
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: What? No, Sudoku. The weights of the minds. Bye, bye.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wait, I thought you were going to clean up. Ah, never mind.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Brains On!
MOLLY BLOOM: We're talking about why phones are often hard to stop using. One reason is that we use them for so many practical things, but they also give us a brain chemical called dopamine.
LINDEN: Dopamine can make us feel good, and that makes us want to use our phones more. It's a big circle.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, but it's not the whole story. Lots of games and apps are also specially designed to keep you plugged in.
LINDEN: Like maybe it's a page where you scroll and scroll but never reach the bottom.
MOLLY BLOOM: Or it's a game where as soon as you beat one challenge.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Another immediately starts up.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LINDEN: Then there are apps that send super important sounding alerts. They pop up like text messages.
SUBJECT 3: Look, now. New post from your friend Humpty. Breaking news. Camels love chips. Important thing. OK, not really. But since you looked, why not keep scrolling?
LINDEN: While some of these may actually be important, a lot of them are just ways to grab your attention and suck you back in.
MOLLY BLOOM: Phones are also hard to put down because it's often how we connect with friends.
LINDEN: We keep checking to see what everyone else is doing, and everyone else is on their phone checking in to see what we are doing.
[COOING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Speaking of friends, this looks like one of Marc's homing pigeons with a message.
LINDEN: What does it say?
MOLLY BLOOM: It's from Marc and it says, urgent. I'm bored.
[COOING]
Oh, another one. This one says, what are you doing? Huh? What's going on? Huh? Huh?
[COOING]
LINDEN: Wow, there's more. A lot more.
MOLLY BLOOM: This one says, hey, you free? And this one says, sorry to bird you again, but do you know if anything's going on today?
LINDEN: Looks like Marc could use some tips on what to do without his phone.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. Let's invite him over and we can come up with some ideas. Let me just write him a note. OK. Come here, pigeon. Let me put this note on your leg. Now, fly my feathered friend.
LINDEN: In the meantime, what should we do about the rest of these pigeons?
[COOING]
I think that one just pooped on a chair. Yep, it definitely did.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, maybe using pigeons as a messaging service wasn't as good an idea as Marc thought. Oh well, bird sight is 20/20.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
OK. This next thing requires no screens, no plugs, not even a battery. Just your ears. It's the--
[OMINOUS SOUND]
SUBJECT 4: Mystery sound.
MOLLY BLOOM: Are you ready for the mystery sound, Linden?
LINDEN: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. Here it is.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
LINDEN: Oh, let me think about this for a sec. It sounded like someone biting into a big, raw piece of broccoli.
MOLLY BLOOM: Ooh, yummy broccoli. Yeah, it sounded like eating for sure to me. I don't know what this is, either. Well, we'll hear it again. Get another chance to guess and hear the answer at the end of the show, right after the credits.
LINDEN: Stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: We are working on an episode all about animal leadership, and we want to hear from you. What animal do you think would make an excellent leader? What qualities do you think are important for a leader to have? What could our human leaders learn from this animal?
So in my mind, I think a sloth would make an excellent leader. It might be a controversial choice, but I think their slowness makes them thoughtful, and they use their farts to swim, which I think shows resourcefulness. And they only poop once a week, so I think they wouldn't be distracted by stuff. So I think they're focused, efficient, and thoughtful. Linden, what animal do you think would make a great leader?
LINDEN: Um, I think wolves would be good leaders because they are in packs, always taking care of each other. And they also pick their own leaders already.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice. Excellent answer. I love it. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Record your answer and send it to us at brainson.org/contact. While you're there, send us your mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
LINDEN: Like this one. How does a permanent tattoo stay forever?
MOLLY BLOOM: You can find answers to questions like these on the Moment of Um podcast. A short dose of facts and fun every weekday. Find Moment of Um and more at brainson.org.
LINDEN: So keep listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUBJECT 4: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Brains On! we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
SUBJECT 5: Entering Brains On! Universe to find my favorite podcasts. Brains On!. Smash Boom Best. Forever Ago. Picking up signal. Smash Boom Best. The smart, funny debate show.
SUBJECT 6: Swish swish. Swish swish. Swish swish. Her tail tails tail turn. Skitter, skitter, skitter, skitter. Tail turn.
SUBJECT 7: Is that a rat noise I hear?
SUBJECT 6: That is a rat noise.
[LAUGHTER]
SUBJECT 8: A classic rat noise.
SUBJECT 6: Tail tail. Tail
SUBJECT 8: Turn, turn, turn. Skip.
SUBJECT 5: Zorp. Where did the signal go? Must find Smash Boom Best, now.
MOLLY BLOOM: Listen to Smash Boom Best, Wherever you get your podcasts.
SUBJECT 9: Brains On. On. On.
LINDEN: And now a public service announcement from kids.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUBJECT 10: Hey, grown ups, we see you on your phone--
SUBJECT 11: Like a lot.
SUBJECT 12: And honestly. It's annoying. Sometimes we want to talk to you or show you something like this cool rock. Have you seen this cool rock? Well, I have.
SUBJECT 13: Or maybe just be around you without feeling like a third wheel to that phone.
SUBJECT 14: We get it. You have important things to do there.
SUBJECT 15: Work, emails, looking up dinner recipes, group texts with people from college you haven't seen in 20 years but feel too guilty to stop replying to.
SUBJECT 16: But sometimes, we see you just mindlessly scrolling. It's hard to stop scrolling.
SUBJECT 17: Especially for you, a full grown adult, because let's face it, you grew up before phones were everywhere. You didn't see how they can eat up all a person's free time.
SUBJECT 18: But us kids, we've been told about the problems with overusing phones our entire lives. So let us help you.
SUBJECT 19: One thing to try is to make time each day that's totally phone free, like meals and evenings. Maybe put your phone to charge in another room. Or take the most distracting apps off your main phone, keep them on only your tablet or computer, so you aren't as tempted.
SUBJECT 20: That way, you'll have more time to be present.
SUBJECT 21: To take after dinner walks with us, or sit on the porch and feel a cool breeze, or tell fart jokes.
SUBJECT 22: It's not easy to cut back on phones, but we know you can do it, grown ups.
SUBJECT 23: And if it helps, we can even make you a sticker chart. You love stickers.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Brains On!. I'm Molly.
LINDEN: And I'm Linden.
MOLLY BLOOM: So far, we've explored why phones are so hard to put down.
LINDEN: A lot of it has to do with the brain chemical called dopamine.
MOLLY BLOOM: But the apps on phones are also carefully made to grab our attention and keep us staring at the screen.
LINDEN: So it's easy to get hooked.
MOLLY BLOOM: But the weird thing is, and I say this from experience, even if you are using your phone a lot, it doesn't mean you're always enjoying it. Phones can be boring, or annoying, or frustrating, even if they're hard to put down.
LINDEN: Yeah. We wanted to know more, so we asked some teenagers to tell us how they really felt about their phones. And it turns out, the reviews are mixed.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUBJECT 24: I like that I can use my phone to communicate with friends and make plans, as well as contacting my parents in case I get lost.
SUBJECT 25: I mean, also because I'm a kid, I like playing games and stuff on it and obviously social media and stuff.
SUBJECT 26: And I can see cool art and stuff.
SUBJECT 27: I don't like how I can't be without it for too long. Like, otherwise it feels like I'm like missing something or I'm just like going to be bored.
SUBJECT 28: I have a lot of trouble just like being able to just turn off Instagram or like stop scrolling, and it gets really annoying.
SUBJECT 29: I don't like that if someone's not included in a group chat, then they could become left out of things and also not want to know what's going on.
SUBJECT 30: You have certain apps or social media or games, like you could get addicted to it and then it can turn to you just being on your phone like all day.
SUBJECT 31: I had friends that started getting into phones, like in late elementary school, like fourth or fifth grade. It was always like so cool and mysterious. I don't know, it felt like an adult space to be inhabiting.
SUBJECT 32: I am an advocate for getting off screen. But I am not one of those people who will actually get off screens.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Linden, anything in there from those teenagers surprise you?
LINDEN: Nothing really surprised me, but I definitely heard all of them talking about, like, all the things they like to do. But then they started talking about all the negative aspects of the phone, and they were saying they were actually giving tips out so you don't get addicted to it. And it seemed like a lot of them said that they got addicted to it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. Yeah, I personally have a lot of feelings about my phone. I really don't like how my brain feels when I've been scrolling and scrolling on social media. Or when I go down a rabbit hole googling random celebrities and going on their Wikipedia pages and finding out where they went to college, and what their summer job was as a teenager. You know what, I don't need that information. But feelings aside, let's get back to your question.
LINDEN: Yeah, ultimately, are phones bad for us, or could they be good for us? What's the answer?
JACQUELINE NESI: Yeah. I mean, I think that parents, everyone, what we're looking for is just a straight answer, like, what should I do? And can you just give it to me straight. Like, yes or no, good or bad? What age?
MOLLY BLOOM: That's Jacqueline Nesi. She's an assistant professor at Brown University and a clinical psychologist focusing on kids and teens.
LINDEN: She's read dozens and dozens of research studies about how phones affect kids and teens.
MOLLY BLOOM: She's looked at how the studies were done, how strong the findings were, and she says the answer to your question, Linden, is--
LINDEN: Here it comes.
MOLLY BLOOM: We don't know. We don't really know if phones are ultimately good or bad for us.
LINDEN: Boo. No. I wanted an easy answer. But honestly, I figured as much.
MOLLY BLOOM: It turns out it's a very hard thing to study. People usually want to know if phones will hurt our mental health, so let's stick with that. Jacqueline says, for starters, it's nearly impossible to design a good study looking at this.
JACQUELINE NESI: Ideally, if we wanted to understand whether phones were having a negative impact on, say, kids in general, we would take one group of kids from the time they were babies, expose them to phones, and then follow them for the rest of their lives and see how they do. We would take another group of kids, no exposure to phones whatsoever for their entire lives until they got to adulthood, and then we would see how they did. And we would compare those two groups. And we would say, hey, were the kids who got phones worse off than the kids who didn't get phones? But obviously that is impossible to do. [LAUGHS]
LINDEN: Um, yeah, that would never happen. What if, instead you just compared kids who already have phones with kids of the same age who haven't gotten one yet and see who is happier?
MOLLY BLOOM: Good thought. But Jacqueline says, even here, it's hard to say if it's the phone that's making a difference or some other thing.
JACQUELINE NESI: Kids who have phones might have less rules in general than kids who don't have phones. And that third thing, like the number of rules that they have, might be the thing that actually impacts their well-being.
MOLLY BLOOM: Instead, she says, it's more useful to look at what a person is doing on a phone than just the act of having a phone itself.
LINDEN: Right. Phone apps that help you practice skills or teach you cool things might be good for you. But apps that show you scary content or paint the world as a dark place probably will make you feel down.
MOLLY BLOOM: One thing a lot of people are worried about these days is social media.
LINDEN: Those are apps where people can post pictures, or videos, or news articles, and message with friends or leave comments.
MOLLY BLOOM: Studies have found social media can be a problem for some kids. The time kids spend using social media can get in the way of doing other things. Also, sometimes kids are bullied there, or they might see stuff that's totally inappropriate. All of this can make kids feel worse, so it's important to be very careful with social media.
LINDEN: Right. But it doesn't mean that every teen who uses social media will have problems. It can depend on the person, the app, so many things.
MOLLY BLOOM: Some teens may even thrive on social media because they find a supportive community there. So how are kids and parents supposed to make sense of all this?
LINDEN: Yeah, I come to Brains On! for cold, hard truths. This is more of a lukewarm, blubbery mess.
MOLLY BLOOM: Sorry, Linden. Sometimes answers are less like a carrot and more like oatmeal. At least until we have better information. Every family needs to think about these things and make their own decisions. But Jacqueline says there are some things that we definitely know are good for us because there's lots of good, strong research on them.
JACQUELINE NESI: Things like connecting socially with other people, getting outside, physical activity or exercise, sleep. And there is a risk with phones, if they get in the way of connecting in person with friends or of sleep, then that is going to have a negative impact.
MOLLY BLOOM: We have resources on our website to help families trying to figure out how to use phones responsibly.
LINDEN: Just head to brainson.org And look for the page for this episode.
MOLLY BLOOM: We've been thinking about our phones a lot here at Brains On!, so we decided to start a new thing, and we're super excited about it. It's called drum roll, please
[DRUM ROLL]
Analog August.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
It's our month long campaign to do more things unplugged and out in the world.
LINDEN: Yeah, we could all use a chance to step back from our tech. That's what Analog August is all about.
MOLLY BLOOM: We've got ideas for fun, phone-free adventures, and tips on how to find a healthy screen life balance.
LINDEN: Like this tip. Try setting times when it's OK to use tech, and then putting it all away the rest of the time.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you have to use a phone or tablet for something important, tell everyone what you're doing. Like this, I'm checking the weather, and then I'm putting my phone away.
LINDEN: That way, everyone around you can make sure you just do that one thing, and you don't get stuck in a scroll hole.
MOLLY BLOOM: Honestly, I'm excited to see what happens to my brain when I use my phone less.
LINDEN: The world is so cool, and there's so much to do and see that doesn't involve a phone.
MOLLY BLOOM: Though, there are great tools. I'll probably still need it for driving directions to get to some of these fun things.
LINDEN: And that's OK. Do your best to use it less.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yes. Do your best to use it less. So join us for Analog August. Go to brainson.org to learn more.
MARC: Linden, Molly. I got your homing pigeon message. Thanks for inviting me over.
MARC: Hey, Marc. We're glad you made it. It seemed like you were getting a little antsy without your phone.
LINDEN: But, boy, do we have some ideas for you.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. it's easier to use your phone less when you replace it with other fun things.
MARC: Whoa. I love fun things. How did you know?
LINDEN: Had a hunch. Now, get ready for rapid fire ideas of fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Make a boredom box and fill it with cool stuff to do. Like puzzles, board games, kazoos, stickers, or sculpting clay. Go to the box whenever you don't know what else to do.
LINDEN: Pick up new hands on hobby like juggling, solving Rubik's cubes, magic tricks, or knitting.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hide cool stuff around your house or yard and make a map. Give someone else the map and see if they can find the treasure.
LINDEN: Try to draw your family members without looking down at the paper.
MOLLY BLOOM: Go outside and find five different bugs. High five those bugs. Carry a book around with you. Read books.
LINDEN: Write books.
MOLLY BLOOM: Eat books. Wait no, don't eat books.
LINDEN: Bake treats.
MOLLY BLOOM: Eat treats. Yes, that one works.
LINDEN: Or write up a letter or a postcard full of silly drawings, knock, knock jokes, or whatever else, and send it to Brains On!.
MOLLY BLOOM: Find our mailing address at brainson.org/about. And if you send us something in August, we'll send you a very special postcard in return. Just make sure your return address is on it somewhere.
LINDEN: How fun is that?
MARC: So fun. But actually, I came to tell you. I already found a fun phone-free thing to do.
MOLLY BLOOM: You did? Oh, I guess we made this huge list for our friend without checking if our friend needed this list.
MARC: Yeah, well, as they say, friends sight is 20/20.
LINDEN: So what's the phone-free thing you're going to do?
MARC: My camels, Humpty and Dumpty and I, we all got into acting.
[GRUNTS]
LINDEN: Whoa, really? That's cool.
MARC: Yeah. Here's a flyer for our first show. The Humpback of Notre Dame. Dumpty here is playing Camel Modo.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wait, your camels act?
MARC: Yeah. They started out a little nervous, but after they got past the first hump, it was a cinch.
[GRUNTS]
Oh, and next month, we're doing the musical, Camelot. You know what Camelot is famous for? Its nightlife. [LAUGHS] Get it? Knight like knights of medieval knights. Anyway, it's going to be great. We've also been working on a musical revue.
(SINGING) Oh, camel all ye faithful,
Joyful and triumphant.
O come ye, oh.
LINDEN: Screens are fun, in part because they get our brains to release dopamine.
MOLLY BLOOM: But that also makes them very hard to put down.
LINDEN: Lots of apps and games are also designed to keep you clicking away.
MOLLY BLOOM: There's tons of research looking at how phones might affect us, but it's hard to say for sure if they're ultimately good or bad.
LINDEN: But there seems to be strong evidence that spending lots of time on social media can be a problem.
MOLLY BLOOM: We do know that sleep, exercise, and seeing friends and family in real life is good for us.
LINDEN: So it's important to make sure phones don't get in the way of that stuff.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's it for this episode.
LINDEN: This episode was written by--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
LINDEN: And edited by--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
LINDEN: Fact checking by--
JESS MILLER: Jess Miller.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Tim Underwood, with sound design by--
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
MOLLY BLOOM: Original theme music by--
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
LINDEN: We had production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO WHISTLER: Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
LINDEN: And--
ARON WOLDESELASSIE: Aron Woldeselassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: Beth Perlman is our executive producer, and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to Corey Lusty, Julia Storm, Devorah Hytner, and Jacqueline Macy.
LINDEN: Brains On! Is a non-profit Public Radio program.
MOLLY BLOOM: There are lots of ways to support the show. Subscribe to Brains On! Universe on YouTube where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. Or head to brainson.org.
LINDEN: While you're there, you can send us mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK, Linden, are you ready to listen to the mystery sound again?
LINDEN: Oh, yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, yeah. Let's hear it.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
OK last time you thought someone biting broccoli. What do you think now?
LINDEN: Still definitely sounds like broccoli. But maybe it's like, it sounds like a bike tire running over a couple rocks on the concrete or something. I don't know.
MOLLY BLOOM: Fascinating. OK, so it's either someone eating broccoli or running over rocks.
LINDEN: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very different. Both could be right. Shall we see what the answer is?
LINDEN: Yes, we should.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. Here's the answer.
PETER: This is Peter.
BEN: And Ben
PETER: From Cleveland, Ohio.
BEN: And this sound is--
PETER: Our mom taking a bite out of corn on the cob--
BEN: With butter.
LINDEN: Oh.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. So you were close with broccoli.
LINDEN: Yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: It's something that grows, it's a plant, except this one is corn. And with butter, very important detail.
LINDEN: Mhm.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you eat corn on the cob?
LINDEN: Yeah, I do. It's really good.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you put butter on it?
LINDEN: Yes, definitely. I'm a butter free corn on the cob kind of girl.
MOLLY BLOOM: Really?
LINDEN: Yeah, I know. I don't even put salt on it. I just like that delicious sweet corn. Pure.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. It's really good.
[CHOMP]
MOLLY BLOOM: Now it's time for the Brains Honor Roll. These are the incredible kids who keep the show going with their questions, ideas, mystery sounds, drawings, and high fives.
[LISTING HONOR ROLL]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll be back next week with an episode about how the things in space get named.
LINDEN: Thanks for listening.
SUBJECT 2: Brains On! is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation.
MARC: Easy, Humpty. Easy. Just got it pack one more thing.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hey, Marc? Um, what's with the camel?
LINDEN: And what's with that mountain of stuff strapped to the camel?
MARC: Oh Hey, Molly and Linden. This is Humpty. He's just carrying my supplies for our phone-free picnic.
[GRUNTS]
LINDEN: All that for one picnic? I'm just bringing chips and a sandwich.
MARC: Oh no. This isn't my food carrying camel. That's Dumpty over there. Hey, Dumpty.
[GRUNTS]
Humpty here is carrying all the old school versions of the things on my phone, so I won't miss them during our phone-free picnic.
MOLLY BLOOM: That seems like a lot for just one picnic.
MARC: I know. So fun, right? I brought a record player and a hundred of my favorite records so we have music, see. Plus, maps in case we need directions. A compass, a calculator, a thermometer, barometer, alarm clock, board games, photo albums, a list of all my friends, a typewriter in case I suddenly want to draft a letter to my friends, and a homing pigeon to deliver that letter to my friends.
[COOING]
Fly, my winged wonder, fly.
MOLLY BLOOM: You know, Marc, I don't think you'll need all this stuff. Why not just hang out and be in the moment?
LINDEN: Yeah, it's fun to do things analog, but it's also fun to just experience things with your senses. Feel the sun, hear the birds, smell the grass.
MARC: You're right. I may have overdone it.
LINDEN: And besides, Humpty looks a little strained.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, I think he wants you to unpack him.
[GRUNTS]
Is a camel even supposed to be carrying that much stuff?
MARC: Good question. Mhm, I don't actually know the weight limit of a camel. Let me check the set of encyclopedias strapped to Humpty's hindquarters. Let's see here. Caftans, crafts, camels.
[GRUNTS]
Oh sorry, Humpty. Unpack first, lookup fact second.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Brains On! from APM Studios. I'm Molly Bloom, and my co-host today is Linden from Bend, Oregon. Hi, Linden.
LINDEN: Hi, Molly. That phone-free picnic was so fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: I know. I just wish Humpty and Dumpty would have left some chips for the rest of us.
LINDEN: Who knew camels love Cool Ranch so much? If I knew, I would have brought more.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. Well, hump sight is 20/20. Speaking of the phone-free picnic, today's episode was inspired by some questions you sent us.
LINDEN: Yeah. I wanted to know why phones and screens are so hard to put down. And are they bad for you?
MOLLY BLOOM: So this is a big topic. There are lots of screens in our lives, but phones are the most common, so we're just going to focus on those today. So, Linden, what got you thinking about this?
LINDEN: Um, I honestly for a long time, I've just really been interested in having a phone. There's a lot of cool stuff that you can do with it, and my mom's not super keen on it. And so I was wondering, is it bad for you. And yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: So you are 11 years old.
LINDEN: Yes, I am 11 years old.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what grade are you going into?
LINDEN: Sixth grade.
MOLLY BLOOM: And so why do you want a phone?
LINDEN: I want a phone. I already have a watch where I can make calls and texts, but I want a phone to be able to play games and use social media and watch stuff.
MOLLY BLOOM: And so your watch, is it a watch that, has the internet on it or is it one of those watches that's more limited in what it can do?
LINDEN: It has the internet, but my mom can set parental controls on it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Got it. And so do your friends have phones?
LINDEN: Yes, some of my friends do have phones, but some of them do not.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, like, would you say, it's like half and half, or more with more without?
LINDEN: I think more of them have without. But the kids that are without phones are getting them soon, I think.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you know they're getting them or is this just like the talk of your friends just figuring out when everyone's going to get a phone.
LINDEN: It's just what they're saying. I don't know if it's true or not.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. Excellent. So one reason this topic is tough is because kids get a lot of mixed messages.
LINDEN: Yeah. Our parents sometimes spend a lot of time on their phones, but then they say they don't want us to have one. What's up with that?
MOLLY BLOOM: This is a hot topic in a lot of families, including mine. So today, we're going to look at this tricky subject and explore what we know and don't know about it. So since this is a discussion happening in lots of families, we thought it made sense is to start by bringing in your mom. Hi, Corey.
COREY: Hi.
MOLLY BLOOM: So Corey, Linden was just telling me that she wants a phone. How do you feel about that?
COREY: This is a tough one for us because I actually work in the tech industry. And I make apps for phones. And so I have a lot of inside understanding of how apps work and, what keeps people drawn to them and using them.
MOLLY BLOOM: So when Linden says, mom, I want a phone, what is your initial reaction?
COREY: No.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Linden, how do you feel about your mom's phone use? How much does she use her phone?
LINDEN: She uses her phone a lot, but I know it's mostly for work. But she also, uses her phone to read the news and go on social media, too.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Corey, how do you feel about your own phone use? I mean, I know I personally feel like I would love to use my phone less and I know I need to, and I feel like I use it too much. And my daughter is always calling me out on it, being like, mom, put your phone down. So I'm working on that. And I'm just wondering, like how you feel about your own? Do you feel like you've got it under control?
COREY: I feel like I use my phone a lot, for sure. I don't feel like it is in any way getting in the way of my life in any negative way. Except that it is presenting a double standard to our kids who we tell them they can only have a certain amount of screen time, and when they use screens for too long, it changes their behavior.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Linden, you've heard what your mom thinks. What do you think about, her thoughts about guys having phones?
LINDEN: I definitely, I know she works with them, so she knows what she's talking about. But I also sometimes feel left out not having a phone. And I wish I could have one. And I know if I did get one now, there would be a lot of rules around it. And I think I would be OK with it.
MOLLY BLOOM: And Linden, do you feel like if you had a phone that you understand what it would be like to have that thing there all the time saying, use me, use me. Like, do you feel like you are prepared to say no to it sometimes?
LINDEN: I feel like if I got a phone I would be able to say no to it because I would use to be part of the group that didn't have it and know what it felt like when the other people were on their phones. But then I also would be like, oh I just got a notification. I want to check it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, those notifications are sneaky. So Corey, what is your favorite thing about your phone?
COREY: Ooh, good question. I think my favorite thing about having a phone is just the immediate access to any information I want at any moment. I think that's what gets me most excited is, any question I have, I can just ask my phone. And then I have the answer right away.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what's your least favorite thing about your phone?
COREY: I think, well, the least favorite thing is just how much public life has changed. And I can't help but notice that when I'm out and about and seeing how many people just have their heads down and they're on their phone or any time there's an awkward situation socially, people, to get out of it, just like instinctively take out their phones. And so I just remember a time before we had phones when things were different, when people got together. And now it feels like everyone's face is just buried in their phones all the time.
MOLLY BLOOM: So one of the experts we spoke to for this episode had an interesting way to think about this. Her name is Julia Storm, and she helps families work through issues around tech. She said, for parents, a kid getting a phone is like having a stranger move into your house.
JULIA STORM: And not only did they move in, but to us, sometimes it feels like they moved into your room, and they started giving you advice, and they started telling you it was cool. And they started to take on more of the role that we used to take on. And so for us, that device, which feels in some ways like all these other people's thoughts and opinions and ideas coming at you, it makes us nervous because we don't know what you're learning on there and we don't always how to keep you safe on there.
MOLLY BLOOM: So does that ring true to either of you?
COREY: Definitely rings true to me. That's one of the reasons that I don't want Linden to have a phone. Is because I know from my own experience, we all know, right? You're on your phone, you see all of the different information coming at you, all of the different opinions, the different tones people are using on there.
And as adults, we have the tools and the context to understand what to listen to, and what to ignore, and who to trust, and how to be skeptical. And I just don't think that kids are capable of that yet. So there's just so much information coming at them and they might choose to believe the wrong thing or the hurtful thing, and that really scares me.
MOLLY BLOOM: What do you think, Linden? Do you think you have a sense of, if you were to see stuff online, like how to understand if it's true or not? Is that something they teach you in school or your parents tell you about?
LINDEN: They definitely teach that to me in school. And my mom has talked to me about it a lot. I feel like I would know, but I would still remember the negative stuff.
MOLLY BLOOM: So listeners at home, feel free to pause this episode and talk about whether anyone said anything today that you hadn't thought of before. Was there anything the other side said that stood out to you? How about you, Linden and Corey? Anything the other one said that stood out to you?
LINDEN: Um, I definitely, I agree with my mom. I agree with the part where she said kids might not have the right mindset to choose what to listen to and what not to.
MOLLY BLOOM: How about you, Corey?
COREY: The thing that stands out and really resonates with me honestly about where Linden's coming from is, I still remember vividly what it's like to be a kid and to think that my parents don't understand, especially when they made rules that meant that I didn't get something that I wanted until I was older, when I felt like I was ready for it right now. So that really resonates with me and I empathize with that. And I don't want to be that parent [CHUCKLES]. But at the same time, I feel like this one's really important.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. Being a parent is hard.
COREY: Yeah, it is.
[CHUCKLES]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, thank you so much for talking about this with us, Corey.
COREY: You're welcome. My pleasure.
LINDEN: Yeah thanks, mom.
(SINGING) Brains On!
MOLLY BLOOM: Today, we're talking about phones and how kids and parents feel about them. One reason we use phones is because they are super useful. We can use them to look up cool camel facts. Like, did you know, that camels have three sets of eyelids and two rows of eyelashes to keep sand out of their eyes?
LINDEN: Whoa. We can also use phones to look up directions, chat with our friends, or take photos.
MOLLY BLOOM: But some scientists think there's another reason why it's easy to get glued to a phone. Which brings us back to one of your questions, Linden.
LINDEN: Why are phones so hard to put down?
MOLLY BLOOM: We actually did an episode about this a while back. Head to brainson.org and search Smartphones to find it. Turns out, one reason why phones are tough to put down has to do with a chemical in your brain called dopamine.
LINDEN: I've heard of dopamine. It's like a little messenger your brain uses to send signals. And it does a lot, from motivating us to helping us move.
MOLLY BLOOM: To help us understand how dopamine and phones work together, let's bring in our favorite talking brain, Dwayne.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Dwayne The Brain here. Ready to crank this episode up to 11.
MOLLY BLOOM: Dwayne is going to help us with a little demonstration.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Of cartwheels? You got it. Watch me go.
[CRASH]
That was broken when I got here.
MOLLY BLOOM: Actually, I thought you'd just help us by demonstrating a brains perspective in all of this.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Oh gotcha. Can do.
LINDEN: Dopamine is sometimes called the reward chemical, or pleasure chemical.
MOLLY BLOOM: Dopamine has lots of jobs. But one of them is to make us feel good when we do something that's good for us, like eating, being social, or trying something new.
LINDEN: Like if we're playing a fun game of soccer with friends. Right, Dwayne?
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Oh yeah. Big time dopamine rush. Especially when I score this goal.
LINDEN: Wait, where'd you get that soccer ball?
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Dwayne shoots, and scores.
[CRASH]
I'll clean that up later.
MOLLY BLOOM: We also get a boost of dopamine when we eat delicious foods like this avocado, bacon, cheeseburger.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Yum. Don't mind if I do.
[CHOMP]
LINDEN: Our brains like dopamine. When we do something that gives us dopamine, our brains say, hey, let's do that thing again.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Yeah, like this. Hey, give me another burger, please.
MOLLY BLOOM: Here you go.
[CHOMP]
We often get dopamine when we use our phones too.
LINDEN: Maybe it's because we got a message from a friend, or we saw a funny meme, or played a video game we love.
MOLLY BLOOM: All these things can give your brain a dopamine boost, which will make your brain want to keep using the phone. It becomes a cycle.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: It's as if I were there in your head saying, do it again. Do it again, and again, and again. Please.
MOLLY BLOOM: Exactly. And unlike a soccer game with friends, or a cheeseburger, a phone is almost always nearby. So your brain is reminded of it all the time.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: Yeah, us brains will see a phone and think, ooh, let's just check it real quick and get some more dopamine. Come on, just one little scroll. And next thing you know, you've been staring at the screen for half an hour. Sorry about that.
LINDEN: Exactly. So phones give us enough dopamine to keep our brains asking for more.
MOLLY BLOOM: Thanks for helping us explain this from a brains perspective, Dwayne.
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: No problem. Now, if you'll excuse me, I got some important strength training to do.
LINDEN: You lift weights?
DWAYNE THE BRAIN: What? No, Sudoku. The weights of the minds. Bye, bye.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wait, I thought you were going to clean up. Ah, never mind.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Brains On!
MOLLY BLOOM: We're talking about why phones are often hard to stop using. One reason is that we use them for so many practical things, but they also give us a brain chemical called dopamine.
LINDEN: Dopamine can make us feel good, and that makes us want to use our phones more. It's a big circle.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, but it's not the whole story. Lots of games and apps are also specially designed to keep you plugged in.
LINDEN: Like maybe it's a page where you scroll and scroll but never reach the bottom.
MOLLY BLOOM: Or it's a game where as soon as you beat one challenge.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Another immediately starts up.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LINDEN: Then there are apps that send super important sounding alerts. They pop up like text messages.
SUBJECT 3: Look, now. New post from your friend Humpty. Breaking news. Camels love chips. Important thing. OK, not really. But since you looked, why not keep scrolling?
LINDEN: While some of these may actually be important, a lot of them are just ways to grab your attention and suck you back in.
MOLLY BLOOM: Phones are also hard to put down because it's often how we connect with friends.
LINDEN: We keep checking to see what everyone else is doing, and everyone else is on their phone checking in to see what we are doing.
[COOING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Speaking of friends, this looks like one of Marc's homing pigeons with a message.
LINDEN: What does it say?
MOLLY BLOOM: It's from Marc and it says, urgent. I'm bored.
[COOING]
Oh, another one. This one says, what are you doing? Huh? What's going on? Huh? Huh?
[COOING]
LINDEN: Wow, there's more. A lot more.
MOLLY BLOOM: This one says, hey, you free? And this one says, sorry to bird you again, but do you know if anything's going on today?
LINDEN: Looks like Marc could use some tips on what to do without his phone.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. Let's invite him over and we can come up with some ideas. Let me just write him a note. OK. Come here, pigeon. Let me put this note on your leg. Now, fly my feathered friend.
LINDEN: In the meantime, what should we do about the rest of these pigeons?
[COOING]
I think that one just pooped on a chair. Yep, it definitely did.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, maybe using pigeons as a messaging service wasn't as good an idea as Marc thought. Oh well, bird sight is 20/20.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
OK. This next thing requires no screens, no plugs, not even a battery. Just your ears. It's the--
[OMINOUS SOUND]
SUBJECT 4: Mystery sound.
MOLLY BLOOM: Are you ready for the mystery sound, Linden?
LINDEN: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. Here it is.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
LINDEN: Oh, let me think about this for a sec. It sounded like someone biting into a big, raw piece of broccoli.
MOLLY BLOOM: Ooh, yummy broccoli. Yeah, it sounded like eating for sure to me. I don't know what this is, either. Well, we'll hear it again. Get another chance to guess and hear the answer at the end of the show, right after the credits.
LINDEN: Stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: We are working on an episode all about animal leadership, and we want to hear from you. What animal do you think would make an excellent leader? What qualities do you think are important for a leader to have? What could our human leaders learn from this animal?
So in my mind, I think a sloth would make an excellent leader. It might be a controversial choice, but I think their slowness makes them thoughtful, and they use their farts to swim, which I think shows resourcefulness. And they only poop once a week, so I think they wouldn't be distracted by stuff. So I think they're focused, efficient, and thoughtful. Linden, what animal do you think would make a great leader?
LINDEN: Um, I think wolves would be good leaders because they are in packs, always taking care of each other. And they also pick their own leaders already.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice. Excellent answer. I love it. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Record your answer and send it to us at brainson.org/contact. While you're there, send us your mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
LINDEN: Like this one. How does a permanent tattoo stay forever?
MOLLY BLOOM: You can find answers to questions like these on the Moment of Um podcast. A short dose of facts and fun every weekday. Find Moment of Um and more at brainson.org.
LINDEN: So keep listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUBJECT 4: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Brains On! we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
SUBJECT 5: Entering Brains On! Universe to find my favorite podcasts. Brains On!. Smash Boom Best. Forever Ago. Picking up signal. Smash Boom Best. The smart, funny debate show.
SUBJECT 6: Swish swish. Swish swish. Swish swish. Her tail tails tail turn. Skitter, skitter, skitter, skitter. Tail turn.
SUBJECT 7: Is that a rat noise I hear?
SUBJECT 6: That is a rat noise.
[LAUGHTER]
SUBJECT 8: A classic rat noise.
SUBJECT 6: Tail tail. Tail
SUBJECT 8: Turn, turn, turn. Skip.
SUBJECT 5: Zorp. Where did the signal go? Must find Smash Boom Best, now.
MOLLY BLOOM: Listen to Smash Boom Best, Wherever you get your podcasts.
SUBJECT 9: Brains On. On. On.
LINDEN: And now a public service announcement from kids.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUBJECT 10: Hey, grown ups, we see you on your phone--
SUBJECT 11: Like a lot.
SUBJECT 12: And honestly. It's annoying. Sometimes we want to talk to you or show you something like this cool rock. Have you seen this cool rock? Well, I have.
SUBJECT 13: Or maybe just be around you without feeling like a third wheel to that phone.
SUBJECT 14: We get it. You have important things to do there.
SUBJECT 15: Work, emails, looking up dinner recipes, group texts with people from college you haven't seen in 20 years but feel too guilty to stop replying to.
SUBJECT 16: But sometimes, we see you just mindlessly scrolling. It's hard to stop scrolling.
SUBJECT 17: Especially for you, a full grown adult, because let's face it, you grew up before phones were everywhere. You didn't see how they can eat up all a person's free time.
SUBJECT 18: But us kids, we've been told about the problems with overusing phones our entire lives. So let us help you.
SUBJECT 19: One thing to try is to make time each day that's totally phone free, like meals and evenings. Maybe put your phone to charge in another room. Or take the most distracting apps off your main phone, keep them on only your tablet or computer, so you aren't as tempted.
SUBJECT 20: That way, you'll have more time to be present.
SUBJECT 21: To take after dinner walks with us, or sit on the porch and feel a cool breeze, or tell fart jokes.
SUBJECT 22: It's not easy to cut back on phones, but we know you can do it, grown ups.
SUBJECT 23: And if it helps, we can even make you a sticker chart. You love stickers.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Brains On!. I'm Molly.
LINDEN: And I'm Linden.
MOLLY BLOOM: So far, we've explored why phones are so hard to put down.
LINDEN: A lot of it has to do with the brain chemical called dopamine.
MOLLY BLOOM: But the apps on phones are also carefully made to grab our attention and keep us staring at the screen.
LINDEN: So it's easy to get hooked.
MOLLY BLOOM: But the weird thing is, and I say this from experience, even if you are using your phone a lot, it doesn't mean you're always enjoying it. Phones can be boring, or annoying, or frustrating, even if they're hard to put down.
LINDEN: Yeah. We wanted to know more, so we asked some teenagers to tell us how they really felt about their phones. And it turns out, the reviews are mixed.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUBJECT 24: I like that I can use my phone to communicate with friends and make plans, as well as contacting my parents in case I get lost.
SUBJECT 25: I mean, also because I'm a kid, I like playing games and stuff on it and obviously social media and stuff.
SUBJECT 26: And I can see cool art and stuff.
SUBJECT 27: I don't like how I can't be without it for too long. Like, otherwise it feels like I'm like missing something or I'm just like going to be bored.
SUBJECT 28: I have a lot of trouble just like being able to just turn off Instagram or like stop scrolling, and it gets really annoying.
SUBJECT 29: I don't like that if someone's not included in a group chat, then they could become left out of things and also not want to know what's going on.
SUBJECT 30: You have certain apps or social media or games, like you could get addicted to it and then it can turn to you just being on your phone like all day.
SUBJECT 31: I had friends that started getting into phones, like in late elementary school, like fourth or fifth grade. It was always like so cool and mysterious. I don't know, it felt like an adult space to be inhabiting.
SUBJECT 32: I am an advocate for getting off screen. But I am not one of those people who will actually get off screens.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Linden, anything in there from those teenagers surprise you?
LINDEN: Nothing really surprised me, but I definitely heard all of them talking about, like, all the things they like to do. But then they started talking about all the negative aspects of the phone, and they were saying they were actually giving tips out so you don't get addicted to it. And it seemed like a lot of them said that they got addicted to it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. Yeah, I personally have a lot of feelings about my phone. I really don't like how my brain feels when I've been scrolling and scrolling on social media. Or when I go down a rabbit hole googling random celebrities and going on their Wikipedia pages and finding out where they went to college, and what their summer job was as a teenager. You know what, I don't need that information. But feelings aside, let's get back to your question.
LINDEN: Yeah, ultimately, are phones bad for us, or could they be good for us? What's the answer?
JACQUELINE NESI: Yeah. I mean, I think that parents, everyone, what we're looking for is just a straight answer, like, what should I do? And can you just give it to me straight. Like, yes or no, good or bad? What age?
MOLLY BLOOM: That's Jacqueline Nesi. She's an assistant professor at Brown University and a clinical psychologist focusing on kids and teens.
LINDEN: She's read dozens and dozens of research studies about how phones affect kids and teens.
MOLLY BLOOM: She's looked at how the studies were done, how strong the findings were, and she says the answer to your question, Linden, is--
LINDEN: Here it comes.
MOLLY BLOOM: We don't know. We don't really know if phones are ultimately good or bad for us.
LINDEN: Boo. No. I wanted an easy answer. But honestly, I figured as much.
MOLLY BLOOM: It turns out it's a very hard thing to study. People usually want to know if phones will hurt our mental health, so let's stick with that. Jacqueline says, for starters, it's nearly impossible to design a good study looking at this.
JACQUELINE NESI: Ideally, if we wanted to understand whether phones were having a negative impact on, say, kids in general, we would take one group of kids from the time they were babies, expose them to phones, and then follow them for the rest of their lives and see how they do. We would take another group of kids, no exposure to phones whatsoever for their entire lives until they got to adulthood, and then we would see how they did. And we would compare those two groups. And we would say, hey, were the kids who got phones worse off than the kids who didn't get phones? But obviously that is impossible to do. [LAUGHS]
LINDEN: Um, yeah, that would never happen. What if, instead you just compared kids who already have phones with kids of the same age who haven't gotten one yet and see who is happier?
MOLLY BLOOM: Good thought. But Jacqueline says, even here, it's hard to say if it's the phone that's making a difference or some other thing.
JACQUELINE NESI: Kids who have phones might have less rules in general than kids who don't have phones. And that third thing, like the number of rules that they have, might be the thing that actually impacts their well-being.
MOLLY BLOOM: Instead, she says, it's more useful to look at what a person is doing on a phone than just the act of having a phone itself.
LINDEN: Right. Phone apps that help you practice skills or teach you cool things might be good for you. But apps that show you scary content or paint the world as a dark place probably will make you feel down.
MOLLY BLOOM: One thing a lot of people are worried about these days is social media.
LINDEN: Those are apps where people can post pictures, or videos, or news articles, and message with friends or leave comments.
MOLLY BLOOM: Studies have found social media can be a problem for some kids. The time kids spend using social media can get in the way of doing other things. Also, sometimes kids are bullied there, or they might see stuff that's totally inappropriate. All of this can make kids feel worse, so it's important to be very careful with social media.
LINDEN: Right. But it doesn't mean that every teen who uses social media will have problems. It can depend on the person, the app, so many things.
MOLLY BLOOM: Some teens may even thrive on social media because they find a supportive community there. So how are kids and parents supposed to make sense of all this?
LINDEN: Yeah, I come to Brains On! for cold, hard truths. This is more of a lukewarm, blubbery mess.
MOLLY BLOOM: Sorry, Linden. Sometimes answers are less like a carrot and more like oatmeal. At least until we have better information. Every family needs to think about these things and make their own decisions. But Jacqueline says there are some things that we definitely know are good for us because there's lots of good, strong research on them.
JACQUELINE NESI: Things like connecting socially with other people, getting outside, physical activity or exercise, sleep. And there is a risk with phones, if they get in the way of connecting in person with friends or of sleep, then that is going to have a negative impact.
MOLLY BLOOM: We have resources on our website to help families trying to figure out how to use phones responsibly.
LINDEN: Just head to brainson.org And look for the page for this episode.
MOLLY BLOOM: We've been thinking about our phones a lot here at Brains On!, so we decided to start a new thing, and we're super excited about it. It's called drum roll, please
[DRUM ROLL]
Analog August.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
It's our month long campaign to do more things unplugged and out in the world.
LINDEN: Yeah, we could all use a chance to step back from our tech. That's what Analog August is all about.
MOLLY BLOOM: We've got ideas for fun, phone-free adventures, and tips on how to find a healthy screen life balance.
LINDEN: Like this tip. Try setting times when it's OK to use tech, and then putting it all away the rest of the time.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you have to use a phone or tablet for something important, tell everyone what you're doing. Like this, I'm checking the weather, and then I'm putting my phone away.
LINDEN: That way, everyone around you can make sure you just do that one thing, and you don't get stuck in a scroll hole.
MOLLY BLOOM: Honestly, I'm excited to see what happens to my brain when I use my phone less.
LINDEN: The world is so cool, and there's so much to do and see that doesn't involve a phone.
MOLLY BLOOM: Though, there are great tools. I'll probably still need it for driving directions to get to some of these fun things.
LINDEN: And that's OK. Do your best to use it less.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yes. Do your best to use it less. So join us for Analog August. Go to brainson.org to learn more.
MARC: Linden, Molly. I got your homing pigeon message. Thanks for inviting me over.
MARC: Hey, Marc. We're glad you made it. It seemed like you were getting a little antsy without your phone.
LINDEN: But, boy, do we have some ideas for you.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah. it's easier to use your phone less when you replace it with other fun things.
MARC: Whoa. I love fun things. How did you know?
LINDEN: Had a hunch. Now, get ready for rapid fire ideas of fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Make a boredom box and fill it with cool stuff to do. Like puzzles, board games, kazoos, stickers, or sculpting clay. Go to the box whenever you don't know what else to do.
LINDEN: Pick up new hands on hobby like juggling, solving Rubik's cubes, magic tricks, or knitting.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hide cool stuff around your house or yard and make a map. Give someone else the map and see if they can find the treasure.
LINDEN: Try to draw your family members without looking down at the paper.
MOLLY BLOOM: Go outside and find five different bugs. High five those bugs. Carry a book around with you. Read books.
LINDEN: Write books.
MOLLY BLOOM: Eat books. Wait no, don't eat books.
LINDEN: Bake treats.
MOLLY BLOOM: Eat treats. Yes, that one works.
LINDEN: Or write up a letter or a postcard full of silly drawings, knock, knock jokes, or whatever else, and send it to Brains On!.
MOLLY BLOOM: Find our mailing address at brainson.org/about. And if you send us something in August, we'll send you a very special postcard in return. Just make sure your return address is on it somewhere.
LINDEN: How fun is that?
MARC: So fun. But actually, I came to tell you. I already found a fun phone-free thing to do.
MOLLY BLOOM: You did? Oh, I guess we made this huge list for our friend without checking if our friend needed this list.
MARC: Yeah, well, as they say, friends sight is 20/20.
LINDEN: So what's the phone-free thing you're going to do?
MARC: My camels, Humpty and Dumpty and I, we all got into acting.
[GRUNTS]
LINDEN: Whoa, really? That's cool.
MARC: Yeah. Here's a flyer for our first show. The Humpback of Notre Dame. Dumpty here is playing Camel Modo.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wait, your camels act?
MARC: Yeah. They started out a little nervous, but after they got past the first hump, it was a cinch.
[GRUNTS]
Oh, and next month, we're doing the musical, Camelot. You know what Camelot is famous for? Its nightlife. [LAUGHS] Get it? Knight like knights of medieval knights. Anyway, it's going to be great. We've also been working on a musical revue.
(SINGING) Oh, camel all ye faithful,
Joyful and triumphant.
O come ye, oh.
LINDEN: Screens are fun, in part because they get our brains to release dopamine.
MOLLY BLOOM: But that also makes them very hard to put down.
LINDEN: Lots of apps and games are also designed to keep you clicking away.
MOLLY BLOOM: There's tons of research looking at how phones might affect us, but it's hard to say for sure if they're ultimately good or bad.
LINDEN: But there seems to be strong evidence that spending lots of time on social media can be a problem.
MOLLY BLOOM: We do know that sleep, exercise, and seeing friends and family in real life is good for us.
LINDEN: So it's important to make sure phones don't get in the way of that stuff.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's it for this episode.
LINDEN: This episode was written by--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
LINDEN: And edited by--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
LINDEN: Fact checking by--
JESS MILLER: Jess Miller.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Tim Underwood, with sound design by--
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
MOLLY BLOOM: Original theme music by--
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
LINDEN: We had production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO WHISTLER: Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
LINDEN: And--
ARON WOLDESELASSIE: Aron Woldeselassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: Beth Perlman is our executive producer, and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to Corey Lusty, Julia Storm, Devorah Hytner, and Jacqueline Macy.
LINDEN: Brains On! Is a non-profit Public Radio program.
MOLLY BLOOM: There are lots of ways to support the show. Subscribe to Brains On! Universe on YouTube where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. Or head to brainson.org.
LINDEN: While you're there, you can send us mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK, Linden, are you ready to listen to the mystery sound again?
LINDEN: Oh, yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, yeah. Let's hear it.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
OK last time you thought someone biting broccoli. What do you think now?
LINDEN: Still definitely sounds like broccoli. But maybe it's like, it sounds like a bike tire running over a couple rocks on the concrete or something. I don't know.
MOLLY BLOOM: Fascinating. OK, so it's either someone eating broccoli or running over rocks.
LINDEN: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very different. Both could be right. Shall we see what the answer is?
LINDEN: Yes, we should.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. Here's the answer.
PETER: This is Peter.
BEN: And Ben
PETER: From Cleveland, Ohio.
BEN: And this sound is--
PETER: Our mom taking a bite out of corn on the cob--
BEN: With butter.
LINDEN: Oh.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. So you were close with broccoli.
LINDEN: Yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: It's something that grows, it's a plant, except this one is corn. And with butter, very important detail.
LINDEN: Mhm.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you eat corn on the cob?
LINDEN: Yeah, I do. It's really good.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you put butter on it?
LINDEN: Yes, definitely. I'm a butter free corn on the cob kind of girl.
MOLLY BLOOM: Really?
LINDEN: Yeah, I know. I don't even put salt on it. I just like that delicious sweet corn. Pure.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. It's really good.
[CHOMP]
MOLLY BLOOM: Now it's time for the Brains Honor Roll. These are the incredible kids who keep the show going with their questions, ideas, mystery sounds, drawings, and high fives.
[LISTING HONOR ROLL]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll be back next week with an episode about how the things in space get named.
LINDEN: Thanks for listening.
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