children's libraries
Andy Lund for APM Studios
Libraries are popular with everyone, but they're especially beloved by kids and their families. They’re places where you can listen to stories, check out books, play with toys -- all for free! What's not to love? But, it wasn't so long ago that kids weren't welcome at all. In this episode, Joy and her cohost Lillike meet a very special wooden doll named Nicholas Knickerbocker, who helps tell the story of the country's first libraries that actually wanted kids there.
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JOY DOLO: Taxi!
DRIVER: Where to?
JOY DOLO: The recording studio, please.
DRIVER: This is New York City. There are lots of studios here.
DOLL: Excuse me Mr. Taxi Driver, but you don't recognize our esteemed passenger?
[GASPS]
JOY DOLO: Who said that?
DOLL: Down here. Under the seat.
JOY DOLO: But you're a little wooden doll. A very old wooden doll.
DRIVER: Where to, ma'am? I don't have all day.
DOLL: Dear sir, I'm astonished you still don't know who's in the back of your cab. Please, kindly take us to the studio where they tape Forever Ago, the award winning history podcast for kids and families.
DRIVER: Wait. Does that mean, you're Joy Dolo. Oh, wow. Oh, I never thought I'd get to meet you. It's my honor.
[HONKS]
[CAR ZOOMS OFF]
JOY DOLO: Thanks. And thanks, you strange little wooden doll.
DOLL: My pleasure, Ms. Dolo. And if I may be so bold as to introduce myself, my name is Nicholas Knickerbocker, and I've been under the back seat of this cab for a long time. Thanks for fishing me out.
JOY DOLO: But how did you know who I was?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Surely you're joking. Your podcast is the only thing this cabbie listens to. I recognized your voice right away.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Have you ever thought about doing an episode about the library? Because do I have a story for you.
JOY DOLO: OK, I'm listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LILICA: You're listening to Forever Ago from APM Studios, where we explore the before. I'm Joy's co-host, Lilica. But Joy hasn't showed up yet.
[DOOR SWINGS OPEN]
[GASPS]
JOY DOLO: I'm here. I'm here. Sorry I'm late.
LILICA: No worries. Traffic today is bonkers.
JOY DOLO: It wasn't traffic. I was deep in conversation with my new friend here.
LILICA: What new friend? I only see a small wooden doll. A very old wooden doll.
JOY DOLO: This doll is my friend. Say hello to Nicholas Knickerbocker.
LILICA: Hello, Nicholas.
JOY DOLO: Say hello to Lilica, Nicholas. Oh, I guess he's feeling shy.
LILICA: Sure.
JOY DOLO: Anyway, Nicholas gave me a great idea for today's episode. I bet you can read me like a book, though, and guess what it is.
LILICA: Um.
JOY DOLO: I mean, just check out this stack of picture books.
LILICA: I'm not sure.
JOY DOLO: I'm not holding my card too close to my vest. My library card, that is.
LILICA: Oh, the library.
JOY DOLO: Yes, we got there.
LILICA: I love the library.
JOY DOLO: What's your favorite part of visiting the library, Lilica?
LILICA: Ooh, that's a hard question. Actually, I think my favorite part is probably not looking for new books to read, but looking for books I've already read. It feels like looking for old friends in the shelves.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow. I love that. Is there a certain genre you like, like romance or sci-fi?
LILICA: I'm more into fantasy, mythology based kind of things. I'm a big fan of Percy Jackson. Right now, I'm reading Hunger Games.
JOY DOLO: When I was growing up, we lived at the library, me and my sisters. Our parents would drop us off there and we loved going there. And we'd stay there for hours, like hours. I just have really vivid memories of just hanging out there a lot. And those are some of my best memories.
LILICA: Libraries are so awesome.
JOY DOLO: And you know who loves libraries? Everyone. But especially parents. There was a survey of parents across the US, and almost all of them said libraries were important for their kids.
LILICA: Well, obviously.
JOY DOLO: It seems obvious to us now. But for a long time, libraries weren't for kids. In fact, they weren't even for the public.
LILICA: Bananas!
JOY DOLO: Right? Tell them what you told me, Nicholas. Nicholas, why are you so quiet all of a sudden? You couldn't stop talking on the way here.
LILICA: Yeah, I bet.
JOY DOLO: Anyway, the first libraries in the US were set up more like clubs. We're talking almost 300 years ago, when books were much harder to get. You had to pay a fee just to use them.
LILICA: Oh yeah. For a long time, books were expensive and rare. They needed to be printed and bound by hand.
JOY DOLO: Right. These early libraries didn't even let people check out books or take them home unless they paid a fee. They also didn't allow women or people of color. And kids were definitely not welcome.
LILICA: None of those people could visit the library?
JOY DOLO: Nope. But by the late 1800s, things were changing. The US was 100 years old, and the country was growing fast.
LILICA: The late 1800s.
[CLASSICAL MUSIC]
Fancy men wore top hats out and about. Most people traveled using horses and carriages. And you could take trains for longer trips. Newspapers were the main way people got information. No radio, movies, TVs, records, or telephones. But there were books.
JOY DOLO: And in a new country with lots of new people, leaders started to see how access to education and books was important in order to have a country full of smart, informed people. So a new idea started catching on-- libraries where you could borrow books and take them home-- for free.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What a charming idea.
LILICA: Ah! Your doll talked.
JOY DOLO: I told you he was a chatterbox.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Sorry about that. I'm a very old doll, so I must have nodded off for a second.
LILICA: But your eyes were open.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Lilica, I'm a wooden doll. I was painted that way.
LILICA: Right.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Ooh, a microphone. Step aside, Lilica.
[TAPS]
Is this thing on? Hello, I'm Nicholas Knickerbocker, a little wooden doll. I've been dreaming of broadcasting my voice on the airwaves for the past 80 years stuck under that taxi seat.
JOY DOLO: The cab was 80 years old?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Yeah. Super vintage. I told you, that driver's a real history buff. Now if you'll excuse me, it's time to practice my comedy routine. Knock, knock.
JOY AND LILICA: Who's there?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Dewey decimal.
JOY DOLO: Dewey decimal who?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Do we decimal or don't we decimal? That is the question. Wait, there's no laugh track? No matter. Add it in post.
JOY DOLO: Anyway, as I was saying, this was a boom time for libraries being built in the US. But most of them did not have spaces for kids.
LILICA: What? The kids' part of the library is the best part of the library.
JOY DOLO: For once, I agree with you.
LILICA: Thank you! Wait, what? We literally just met.
JOY DOLO: Humph. A few librarians were pushing against that idea. Pawtucket, Rhode Island, had a reading room for kids. Brookline, Massachusetts, had a spot for them in the basement. And Cleveland made room for them in a hallway.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Some might say cozy. I say no-- zy. Give the youngsters a proper library.
JOY DOLO: By the beginning of the 1900s, librarians were starting to agree that it made sense to serve kids, but only over the age of 12.
LILICA: Not fair.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Well, the littlest littles do tend to have awfully sticky hands. Ask me how I know.
LILICA: No, thank you.
JOY DOLO: But soon, that would all change.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Oh, Joy. Please do let me do the cliffhanger. Please. I've never gotten to do a single one, and you've gotten to do so very many. Please, Joy. Please, please, please, please, please, please.
JOY DOLO: OK, OK, OK. This was your idea, after all.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Thank you.
[CLEARS THROAT]
But soon, that would all change. Right here in New York City.
[CLEARS THROAT]
(SINGING) Start spreading the news. I'm leaving today. If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere. The only living doll in New York. Welcome to New York. It's been waiting for you. Welcome to New York. Welcome--
JOY DOLO: Thank you so much for that unnecessary interlude, Nicholas. But now, it's time for--
AUDIO TRACK: First Things First!
JOY DOLO: That's the game where we try to guess the order things came in history. Today, we have three famous children's books-- The Cat in the Hat, If You Give a Mouse a Cookie, and The Very Hungry Caterpillar. OK, Lilica. Which do you think came first, which came second, and which came most recently in history?
LILICA: Those, those are good ones. Well, Cat in the Hat is Dr. Seuss. And I know Dr. Seuss did posters during World War II. So I would guess that he would have been writing a little bit after that, like similar times. I don't know a ton about Seuss, but I just know a couple random facts. So I guess probably the Cat in the Hat is earliest.
JOY DOLO: OK.
LILICA: And then the author of If You Give a Mouse a Cookie wrote If You Give a Cat a Cupcake, If You Throw a Pig a Party. And we have a copy of If You Throw a Pig a Party signed by the author that my big sister got to me when she was super little.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow. That's so cool.
LILICA: I'm going to put that as most recently, because I know that the author was-- I don't know if she's still alive, but she was alive at some point recently in time. So I'm going to put that as newest. And I will by default but The Very Hungry Caterpillar in the middle.
JOY DOLO: Oh, those are great guesses. And very educated guesses, too. So number one, we have The Cat in the Hat. And then number two, we have The Very Hungry Caterpillar. And then the most recent we think is If You Give a Mouse a Cookie. You feel good about that?
LILICA: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: We'll hear the answers at the end of the episode right after the credits.
LILICA: We'll be right back.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
LILICA: And I'm Lilica.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: And I'm Nicholas Knickerbocker, a very special little wooden doll.
JOY DOLO: We love talking about the surprising history behind some of our favorite inventions on this show. We also love hearing about inventions you couldn't imagine living without. Here's today's--
AUDIO TRACK: Invention Mention.
[WHIRRING]
[SQUEAKS]
MALIK: My name's Malik. My Invention Mention is books. Because I like reading. And books make you smarter. I have fiction books, comics, educational books. My favorite books are the 4D and D books I have.
JOY DOLO: Thanks to Malik for sending in that very timely Invention Mention. We want to hear from you, too. Send us a recording of yourself sharing your favorite invention and what's great about it at foreverago.org/contact.
LILICA: Now back to the episode.
JOY DOLO: Today, we're talking about children's libraries. Before the break, we talked about how new public libraries were being built all over the US in the late 1800s.
LILICA: People could borrow books, which was a strange new idea back then. But they weren't really places for kids.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: And here's where we get to talk about my dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, friend Anne Carroll Moore. In fact, I wrote a little book about her. Would you care to read it?
JOY DOLO: You wrote a book?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What else are you going to do while wedged under the back seat of a cab for 80 years, am I right? All right, here we go.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Once upon a time, there was a girl named Anne Carroll Moore. She grew up in Maine with seven older brothers. She loved to be outside and she loved books. In fact she loved books so much that when she grew up, she went to college to become a librarian. Instead of settling down and getting married, which was the expected path for women back then. Anne was a real trailblazer.
After she graduated, she was put in charge of making a children's library reading room at her university. It was an experiment. So Anne did a lot of thinking about what the room should be like. She talked to children, visited kindergartens, which were also pretty new at the time, and toured the many different neighborhoods of New York City.
When it was time to make her children's reading room, she did things differently than they had been done before. She had storytimes, puppets, beautiful books for children, librarians who actually liked children, and little child-sized chairs and nooks. Then in came the Three Bears, and they said, someone's been sitting in my tiny child-sized chair. And Cinderella said, have you seen my shoe? And Peter Rabbit said, well, my shoes are on that scarecrow over there. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.
LILICA: Well, that took a turn.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I like to think that endings are my strong suit.
JOY DOLO: But that wasn't the end of children's libraries. Anne Carroll Moore was hired by the New York Public Library to bring her kind of children's library to the whole city.
LILICA: Seems like a big deal.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Absolutely, it was. The New York Public Library had branches all over the city.
JOY DOLO: And not only were her ideas spreading across all of New York City, they were also spreading across the country and the world.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Anne was a big deal. She wrote articles, went to meetings of librarians, sharing the way she thought children's libraries should be run. She had lots and lots of ideas.
JOY DOLO: One of these ideas was something called the four respects.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I keep a copy in my pocket. Here, Lilica. Would you like to do the honor?
LILICA: It's so tiny!
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Lucky for you, I also keep a magnifying glass in my pocket.
LILICA: Also very tiny.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Fair point. I'll read them, then. Ooh, how about we do a little interactive call and response? When I point to you, you say, respect. Sound good?
JOY DOLO: I love saying things on cue.
LILICA: Me, too!
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Perfect. Here we go. My dear friend Ms. Anne Carroll Moore believed four things were key for children's libraries. She called them the four respects. They were--
JOY DOLO: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For children.
LILICA: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For children's books.
JOY DOLO: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For fellow workers.
LILICA: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For the professional standing of children's librarians.
JOY DOLO: Oh, that was fun. But those seem kind of obvious.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: They weren't at the time. These were radical ideas. She also hired librarians who looked like the people they served-- Black librarians, Puerto Rican librarians, librarians that could speak the languages of the many immigrant children living in the city. Anne Carroll Moore also made sure there were lots of children's books in those languages, too.
And speaking of radical, another mind blowing idea she had was that children should be allowed to check out books.
JOY DOLO: That's one of the best parts of going to the library.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: A lot of the children visiting the library were poor, and a lot of snobs thought if children were allowed to take the books home, they would get dirty or lost or damaged.
JOY DOLO: And think about this. Letting kids check out library books is a huge sign of respect. Kids don't get to vote, they don't get to drive. But they do get the pleasure of having a library card and the responsibility that comes with it.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Indubitably. In the libraries Anne Carroll Moore ran, there was a big black ledger. And if you could sign your name in this notebook, you could borrow a book. And when you signed it, you had to take a pledge. I can hear all the little voices now.
SUBJECT 1: When I write my name in this book, I promise to take good care of the books I use in the library and at home. And to obey the rules of the library.
JOY DOLO: How did you do that?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I'm a talking doll, Joy. You think I can only do one voice? Please, I've been at library storytimes for almost as long as they've existed.
LILICA: How do you know so much about all this, anyway?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Finally, you asked. I've been waiting. Anne Carroll Moore was my best friend. I started working with her about 10 years after she joined the New York Public Library. She would ask me to help with storytimes, talk to shy children. That kind of delightful stuff. And took me with her everywhere. She told the children tales of my adventures at the library after hours and eventually wrote a couple books about me. Nicholas Knickerbocker, her famous little wooden doll.
LILICA: So you actually knew Anne Carroll Moore? In real life?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Yes. I was her little doll friend, and I spent every day with her. Eyes sparkled like pennies in a fountain. Her hair smelled of rosewater and wood pulp. Her cuticles were neat as the stitching on a--
JOY DOLO: OK, yes, we get it. But yes, it's true. Anne Carroll Moore really did have a little wooden doll named Nicholas Knickerbocker. She used him to entertain kids, and she took him pretty much everywhere she went.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: We were the best of friends. Ms. Moore brought me to meetings with important people and would use me to talk to them. Famous authors and book publishers would sometimes even send me letters and gifts. There was even a place for me at the table at her dinner parties.
LILICA: A grown up took you, a little wooden doll, everywhere and made people talk to you?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Made them talk to me? I beg your pardon, they wanted to. Are you familiar with Ms. Beatrix Potter?
JOY DOLO: Of course! She wrote the Peter Rabbit books.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Well, my dear Anne Carroll Moore was great friends with Ms. Potter. But so was I. Mw. Potter sent Anne Carroll Moore a special Christmas card she had drawn just for me. She drew Peter Rabbit asleep in bed with me, Nicholas Knickerbocker watching over him while he slept. Inside the card, Ms. Potter wrote, "Dear Ms. Carroll Moore, I do not know the home address of Nicholas. Peter and Flopsy want to wish him a very Merry Christmas."
LILICA: That's quite incredible. So how did Anne Carroll Moore know all of these famous authors and book publishers?
JOY DOLO: Oh, I can help with this question. Thanks to her work with children's libraries, Anne Carroll Moore was huge in children's publishing. It was libraries and Anne Carroll Moore that got people interested in making and buying beautiful, interesting books for children. I have a friend who helped me look into this.
BETSY BIRD: She was the most influential critic.
JOY DOLO: That's Betsy Bird. She's a librarian and expert in children's books. And back in the early days of libraries, there weren't a ton of books made for kids. Anne Carroll Moore wanted more of them, and she wanted them to be better.
LILICA: So just like her library ideas spread across the world, so did her ideas about books for kids.
JOY DOLO: Exactly.
BETSY BIRD: She was the expert. And everyone agreed. She had her own newsletter. People would come to visit her at the library and show her their books. And if she liked you, she would mention it in her newsletters and news librarians all around the country would buy them. And she would buy them herself, because she-- New York Public Library had a huge budget, so she'd put them in every branch.
JOY DOLO: There was no internet or other ways to get attention for your books. So publishers and authors would try to impress Anne.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Did I mention the gifts they sent me? One author sent a little glass swan. Another, a tiny little sewing kit. All for me, Nicholas Knickerbocker. Anne Carroll Moore's little wooden doll.
LILICA: Did gifts and visits helped authors get in good with Anne Carroll Moore?
JOY DOLO: Maybe? Probably. I mean, who doesn't love a tiny sewing kit? Either way, Betsy says authors were hoping Anne would notice their books. Because at the time, almost everyone thought she was the best judge for what books kids would like.
BETSY BIRD: She had a very distinct feeling of what made a good book.
JOY DOLO: For example, like you, Lilica, she loved fantasy. She wanted to transport kids to other worlds with reading. She loved fairy tales and Peter Rabbit. Stories that had lessons and had beautiful language. She read so many books and had so many opinions. If she liked your book, she would recommend it.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: But if she didn't, hoo, boy, she would let everyone know. When she read a book she didn't like, she would exclaim, truck! And she had a stamp for those books, too. It said, not recommended for purchase by expert.
LILICA: Truck?
JOY DOLO: It's old slang from the phrase "I have no truck with--" Like, you don't want anything to do with it. So those stiletto heels that gave me blisters and made me walk funny for days after, truck.
LILICA: Oh! Or like the soda that not only tasted bad, but didn't even have enough fizz to make a really good burp. Truck.
[LAUGHS]
JOY DOLO: But one kind of book that was instant truck for Anne, any book that was part of a series.
LILICA: What? Series are some of the most popular books for kids now. Baby-Sitters Club, Wimpy Kid, Percy Jackson. I'm obsessed with the Percy Jackson books.
JOY DOLO: It wouldn't have been allowed.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: There were some series back then that were not that well written. So Ms. Moore just said phooey to the whole lot. And there were lots of other books that were on her big no list.
BETSY BIRD: She hated Charlotte's Web. Because she felt that E.B. White was mixing fantasy talking animals with the reality of the farm. And she couldn't stand that. She was like, no, no, no, no, no, pick a lane. You're either fantasy. Or if you're reality, you can't merge the two.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Like, say, for instance, you had a talking wooden doll character based on an actual wooden doll, and this somewhat fantastical talking wooden doll was sharing real facts about a real person and was, in fact, a real historical item himself.
LILICA: You could say that.
JOY DOLO: As Anne Carroll Moore got older, she was set in her ways. But the books that people wanted to make for children were changing. They wanted books that didn't necessarily have a message. Books that were about real kids doing real things.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What fiddle-faddle. Ms. Moore and I both hated Goodnight Moon. What is that? Nothing happens. And don't even get me started on Stuart Little.
LILICA: Those books are classics now.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: A woman gives birth to a mouse? What in the ever loving world?
JOY DOLO: So what people wanted from books evolved. And eventually, Anne Carroll Moore was out of step with the times.
LILICA: But that doesn't change the fact that she basically made children's libraries what we know and love today.
BETSY BIRD: I compare the children's room of any library to the milk in a grocery store. The milk is what you want. You have to walk through the whole grocery store to get to the milk. And along the way, you see other things. The children's room is the milk. It's where everyone wants to get to eventually. It's where they're having the best time. So that's what I love about it.
[SOBS]
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: That's beautiful. Ms. Moore would be so touched.
JOY DOLO: So, wait. You were best pals with Anne Carroll Moore, met all sorts of famous authors, talked to children all over the city. How did you end up in the back of the cab?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I don't want to talk about it.
LILICA: Well, I guess we'll never--
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Fine, I'll tell you. Twist my arm, why don't you? One of Ms. Moore's assistants was transporting me to one of my engagements. And she forgot me. In the back of the taxi.
JOY DOLO: Yes. I'm sure she forgot you.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Ms. Moore was furious. But then, she bought a replacement doll so as not to upset the children.
JOY DOLO: Yes, not to upset the children.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: But that's Ms. Moore for you. Always thinking of the children.
LILICA: Well, now that we've got you out of the back seat of the cab, where do you want to go? This was such a fascinating history, and we'd love to thank you by making your dreams come true.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Well, I do have one dream. I've been thinking about it nonstop, actually.
JOY DOLO: Wait, let me guess. Is it to become a real boy? I bet it's to become a real boy.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What? And have to poop? No, thank you.
LILICA: Fair.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: My dream is to go to storytime at the library. See all the happy faces and hear the giggles. That's my dream.
LILICA: We can make that happen. Let's go!
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: This episode was written by Molly Bloom. We had help from Nico Gonzalez Wisler, Sanden Totten, Aron Woldeslassie, Anna Goldfield, Shahla Farzan, Rosie DuPont, Ruby Guthrie, and Anna Weggel. Sound design by Rachel Breeze. Theme music by Marc Sanchez. Beth Perlman is our executive producer. We had engineering help from Anna Haverman, Jess Berg, Josh Savageau, and Elliot Lanham. The executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati, Joanne Griffith, and Alex Shafford. Special thanks to Stu Bloom and Owen.
LILICA: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our Smarty Pass.
JOY DOLO: Check it out at smartypass.org.
OK, Lilica. Ready to hear the answers for the First Things First?
LILICA: Yes, let's do it.
JOY DOLO: OK. So as a reminder, we're putting the three famous children books in order, and your vote was The Cat in the Hat, The Very Hungry Caterpillar. And then If You Give a Mouse a Cookie as the most recent, yeah?
LILICA: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: All right.
LILICA: I'm so nervous.
[LAUGHS]
JOY DOLO: Well, I have to tell you that unfortunately, you were completely right.
LILICA: Oh my god, really?
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah yeah.
LILICA: Yes! Finally!
JOY DOLO: Yes, you did it. I wish we had a--
LILICA: I got them all!
JOY DOLO: First Things First award we can give you. Like a gold plaque of some kind. So The Cat in the Hat was published in 1957. And before The Cat in the Hat was published, kids used books called primers to learn how to read. And they were B-O-R-I-N-G, boring. So a publishing company asked Dr. Seuss to write a more entertaining primer, and The Cat in the Hat was born. And it was a huge hit, and it still is today.
LILICA: That's a really interesting backstory.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah. And then second, which you were right about again, was The Very Hungry Caterpillar. And that was published in 1969. Eric Carle originally planned to make this book about a hungry bookworm called Willie the Worm. Another classic. This book has been translated in over 60 languages.
LILICA: I actually love the concept of Willie the Worm, the hungry bookworm. I adore The Very Hungry Caterpillar. It was one of my favorite board books when I was small. And still, I love the art style.
JOY DOLO: Yeah. I also like that it could be shared like around the world. I mean, it's 60 languages.
LILICA: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: That's access to so many different kinds of people and so many different kinds of kids. I think that's pretty cool.
LILICA: Absolutely.
JOY DOLO: And last but not least, If You Give a Mouse a Cookie written by Laura Numeroff was published in 1985. And two years later, I was born. There have since been several more books in the series, including If You Give a Moose a Muffin and If You Give a Pig a Pancake. I think I'll write one called If You Give Joy Dolo a Donut.
[GIGGLES]
If you give Joy a Diet Coke at 4:00 PM.
[LAUGHS]
We'll be back next week with an episode all about the history of synthesizers. Those electronic machines that make amazing music.
LILICA: Thanks for listening!
[MUSIC PLAYING]
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I'm Nicholas! Nick to the Bocker!
DRIVER: Where to?
JOY DOLO: The recording studio, please.
DRIVER: This is New York City. There are lots of studios here.
DOLL: Excuse me Mr. Taxi Driver, but you don't recognize our esteemed passenger?
[GASPS]
JOY DOLO: Who said that?
DOLL: Down here. Under the seat.
JOY DOLO: But you're a little wooden doll. A very old wooden doll.
DRIVER: Where to, ma'am? I don't have all day.
DOLL: Dear sir, I'm astonished you still don't know who's in the back of your cab. Please, kindly take us to the studio where they tape Forever Ago, the award winning history podcast for kids and families.
DRIVER: Wait. Does that mean, you're Joy Dolo. Oh, wow. Oh, I never thought I'd get to meet you. It's my honor.
[HONKS]
[CAR ZOOMS OFF]
JOY DOLO: Thanks. And thanks, you strange little wooden doll.
DOLL: My pleasure, Ms. Dolo. And if I may be so bold as to introduce myself, my name is Nicholas Knickerbocker, and I've been under the back seat of this cab for a long time. Thanks for fishing me out.
JOY DOLO: But how did you know who I was?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Surely you're joking. Your podcast is the only thing this cabbie listens to. I recognized your voice right away.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Have you ever thought about doing an episode about the library? Because do I have a story for you.
JOY DOLO: OK, I'm listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LILICA: You're listening to Forever Ago from APM Studios, where we explore the before. I'm Joy's co-host, Lilica. But Joy hasn't showed up yet.
[DOOR SWINGS OPEN]
[GASPS]
JOY DOLO: I'm here. I'm here. Sorry I'm late.
LILICA: No worries. Traffic today is bonkers.
JOY DOLO: It wasn't traffic. I was deep in conversation with my new friend here.
LILICA: What new friend? I only see a small wooden doll. A very old wooden doll.
JOY DOLO: This doll is my friend. Say hello to Nicholas Knickerbocker.
LILICA: Hello, Nicholas.
JOY DOLO: Say hello to Lilica, Nicholas. Oh, I guess he's feeling shy.
LILICA: Sure.
JOY DOLO: Anyway, Nicholas gave me a great idea for today's episode. I bet you can read me like a book, though, and guess what it is.
LILICA: Um.
JOY DOLO: I mean, just check out this stack of picture books.
LILICA: I'm not sure.
JOY DOLO: I'm not holding my card too close to my vest. My library card, that is.
LILICA: Oh, the library.
JOY DOLO: Yes, we got there.
LILICA: I love the library.
JOY DOLO: What's your favorite part of visiting the library, Lilica?
LILICA: Ooh, that's a hard question. Actually, I think my favorite part is probably not looking for new books to read, but looking for books I've already read. It feels like looking for old friends in the shelves.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow. I love that. Is there a certain genre you like, like romance or sci-fi?
LILICA: I'm more into fantasy, mythology based kind of things. I'm a big fan of Percy Jackson. Right now, I'm reading Hunger Games.
JOY DOLO: When I was growing up, we lived at the library, me and my sisters. Our parents would drop us off there and we loved going there. And we'd stay there for hours, like hours. I just have really vivid memories of just hanging out there a lot. And those are some of my best memories.
LILICA: Libraries are so awesome.
JOY DOLO: And you know who loves libraries? Everyone. But especially parents. There was a survey of parents across the US, and almost all of them said libraries were important for their kids.
LILICA: Well, obviously.
JOY DOLO: It seems obvious to us now. But for a long time, libraries weren't for kids. In fact, they weren't even for the public.
LILICA: Bananas!
JOY DOLO: Right? Tell them what you told me, Nicholas. Nicholas, why are you so quiet all of a sudden? You couldn't stop talking on the way here.
LILICA: Yeah, I bet.
JOY DOLO: Anyway, the first libraries in the US were set up more like clubs. We're talking almost 300 years ago, when books were much harder to get. You had to pay a fee just to use them.
LILICA: Oh yeah. For a long time, books were expensive and rare. They needed to be printed and bound by hand.
JOY DOLO: Right. These early libraries didn't even let people check out books or take them home unless they paid a fee. They also didn't allow women or people of color. And kids were definitely not welcome.
LILICA: None of those people could visit the library?
JOY DOLO: Nope. But by the late 1800s, things were changing. The US was 100 years old, and the country was growing fast.
LILICA: The late 1800s.
[CLASSICAL MUSIC]
Fancy men wore top hats out and about. Most people traveled using horses and carriages. And you could take trains for longer trips. Newspapers were the main way people got information. No radio, movies, TVs, records, or telephones. But there were books.
JOY DOLO: And in a new country with lots of new people, leaders started to see how access to education and books was important in order to have a country full of smart, informed people. So a new idea started catching on-- libraries where you could borrow books and take them home-- for free.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What a charming idea.
LILICA: Ah! Your doll talked.
JOY DOLO: I told you he was a chatterbox.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Sorry about that. I'm a very old doll, so I must have nodded off for a second.
LILICA: But your eyes were open.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Lilica, I'm a wooden doll. I was painted that way.
LILICA: Right.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Ooh, a microphone. Step aside, Lilica.
[TAPS]
Is this thing on? Hello, I'm Nicholas Knickerbocker, a little wooden doll. I've been dreaming of broadcasting my voice on the airwaves for the past 80 years stuck under that taxi seat.
JOY DOLO: The cab was 80 years old?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Yeah. Super vintage. I told you, that driver's a real history buff. Now if you'll excuse me, it's time to practice my comedy routine. Knock, knock.
JOY AND LILICA: Who's there?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Dewey decimal.
JOY DOLO: Dewey decimal who?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Do we decimal or don't we decimal? That is the question. Wait, there's no laugh track? No matter. Add it in post.
JOY DOLO: Anyway, as I was saying, this was a boom time for libraries being built in the US. But most of them did not have spaces for kids.
LILICA: What? The kids' part of the library is the best part of the library.
JOY DOLO: For once, I agree with you.
LILICA: Thank you! Wait, what? We literally just met.
JOY DOLO: Humph. A few librarians were pushing against that idea. Pawtucket, Rhode Island, had a reading room for kids. Brookline, Massachusetts, had a spot for them in the basement. And Cleveland made room for them in a hallway.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Some might say cozy. I say no-- zy. Give the youngsters a proper library.
JOY DOLO: By the beginning of the 1900s, librarians were starting to agree that it made sense to serve kids, but only over the age of 12.
LILICA: Not fair.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Well, the littlest littles do tend to have awfully sticky hands. Ask me how I know.
LILICA: No, thank you.
JOY DOLO: But soon, that would all change.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Oh, Joy. Please do let me do the cliffhanger. Please. I've never gotten to do a single one, and you've gotten to do so very many. Please, Joy. Please, please, please, please, please, please.
JOY DOLO: OK, OK, OK. This was your idea, after all.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Thank you.
[CLEARS THROAT]
But soon, that would all change. Right here in New York City.
[CLEARS THROAT]
(SINGING) Start spreading the news. I'm leaving today. If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere. The only living doll in New York. Welcome to New York. It's been waiting for you. Welcome to New York. Welcome--
JOY DOLO: Thank you so much for that unnecessary interlude, Nicholas. But now, it's time for--
AUDIO TRACK: First Things First!
JOY DOLO: That's the game where we try to guess the order things came in history. Today, we have three famous children's books-- The Cat in the Hat, If You Give a Mouse a Cookie, and The Very Hungry Caterpillar. OK, Lilica. Which do you think came first, which came second, and which came most recently in history?
LILICA: Those, those are good ones. Well, Cat in the Hat is Dr. Seuss. And I know Dr. Seuss did posters during World War II. So I would guess that he would have been writing a little bit after that, like similar times. I don't know a ton about Seuss, but I just know a couple random facts. So I guess probably the Cat in the Hat is earliest.
JOY DOLO: OK.
LILICA: And then the author of If You Give a Mouse a Cookie wrote If You Give a Cat a Cupcake, If You Throw a Pig a Party. And we have a copy of If You Throw a Pig a Party signed by the author that my big sister got to me when she was super little.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow. That's so cool.
LILICA: I'm going to put that as most recently, because I know that the author was-- I don't know if she's still alive, but she was alive at some point recently in time. So I'm going to put that as newest. And I will by default but The Very Hungry Caterpillar in the middle.
JOY DOLO: Oh, those are great guesses. And very educated guesses, too. So number one, we have The Cat in the Hat. And then number two, we have The Very Hungry Caterpillar. And then the most recent we think is If You Give a Mouse a Cookie. You feel good about that?
LILICA: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: We'll hear the answers at the end of the episode right after the credits.
LILICA: We'll be right back.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
LILICA: And I'm Lilica.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: And I'm Nicholas Knickerbocker, a very special little wooden doll.
JOY DOLO: We love talking about the surprising history behind some of our favorite inventions on this show. We also love hearing about inventions you couldn't imagine living without. Here's today's--
AUDIO TRACK: Invention Mention.
[WHIRRING]
[SQUEAKS]
MALIK: My name's Malik. My Invention Mention is books. Because I like reading. And books make you smarter. I have fiction books, comics, educational books. My favorite books are the 4D and D books I have.
JOY DOLO: Thanks to Malik for sending in that very timely Invention Mention. We want to hear from you, too. Send us a recording of yourself sharing your favorite invention and what's great about it at foreverago.org/contact.
LILICA: Now back to the episode.
JOY DOLO: Today, we're talking about children's libraries. Before the break, we talked about how new public libraries were being built all over the US in the late 1800s.
LILICA: People could borrow books, which was a strange new idea back then. But they weren't really places for kids.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: And here's where we get to talk about my dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, friend Anne Carroll Moore. In fact, I wrote a little book about her. Would you care to read it?
JOY DOLO: You wrote a book?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What else are you going to do while wedged under the back seat of a cab for 80 years, am I right? All right, here we go.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Once upon a time, there was a girl named Anne Carroll Moore. She grew up in Maine with seven older brothers. She loved to be outside and she loved books. In fact she loved books so much that when she grew up, she went to college to become a librarian. Instead of settling down and getting married, which was the expected path for women back then. Anne was a real trailblazer.
After she graduated, she was put in charge of making a children's library reading room at her university. It was an experiment. So Anne did a lot of thinking about what the room should be like. She talked to children, visited kindergartens, which were also pretty new at the time, and toured the many different neighborhoods of New York City.
When it was time to make her children's reading room, she did things differently than they had been done before. She had storytimes, puppets, beautiful books for children, librarians who actually liked children, and little child-sized chairs and nooks. Then in came the Three Bears, and they said, someone's been sitting in my tiny child-sized chair. And Cinderella said, have you seen my shoe? And Peter Rabbit said, well, my shoes are on that scarecrow over there. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.
LILICA: Well, that took a turn.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I like to think that endings are my strong suit.
JOY DOLO: But that wasn't the end of children's libraries. Anne Carroll Moore was hired by the New York Public Library to bring her kind of children's library to the whole city.
LILICA: Seems like a big deal.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Absolutely, it was. The New York Public Library had branches all over the city.
JOY DOLO: And not only were her ideas spreading across all of New York City, they were also spreading across the country and the world.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Anne was a big deal. She wrote articles, went to meetings of librarians, sharing the way she thought children's libraries should be run. She had lots and lots of ideas.
JOY DOLO: One of these ideas was something called the four respects.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I keep a copy in my pocket. Here, Lilica. Would you like to do the honor?
LILICA: It's so tiny!
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Lucky for you, I also keep a magnifying glass in my pocket.
LILICA: Also very tiny.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Fair point. I'll read them, then. Ooh, how about we do a little interactive call and response? When I point to you, you say, respect. Sound good?
JOY DOLO: I love saying things on cue.
LILICA: Me, too!
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Perfect. Here we go. My dear friend Ms. Anne Carroll Moore believed four things were key for children's libraries. She called them the four respects. They were--
JOY DOLO: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For children.
LILICA: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For children's books.
JOY DOLO: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For fellow workers.
LILICA: Respect.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: For the professional standing of children's librarians.
JOY DOLO: Oh, that was fun. But those seem kind of obvious.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: They weren't at the time. These were radical ideas. She also hired librarians who looked like the people they served-- Black librarians, Puerto Rican librarians, librarians that could speak the languages of the many immigrant children living in the city. Anne Carroll Moore also made sure there were lots of children's books in those languages, too.
And speaking of radical, another mind blowing idea she had was that children should be allowed to check out books.
JOY DOLO: That's one of the best parts of going to the library.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: A lot of the children visiting the library were poor, and a lot of snobs thought if children were allowed to take the books home, they would get dirty or lost or damaged.
JOY DOLO: And think about this. Letting kids check out library books is a huge sign of respect. Kids don't get to vote, they don't get to drive. But they do get the pleasure of having a library card and the responsibility that comes with it.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Indubitably. In the libraries Anne Carroll Moore ran, there was a big black ledger. And if you could sign your name in this notebook, you could borrow a book. And when you signed it, you had to take a pledge. I can hear all the little voices now.
SUBJECT 1: When I write my name in this book, I promise to take good care of the books I use in the library and at home. And to obey the rules of the library.
JOY DOLO: How did you do that?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I'm a talking doll, Joy. You think I can only do one voice? Please, I've been at library storytimes for almost as long as they've existed.
LILICA: How do you know so much about all this, anyway?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Finally, you asked. I've been waiting. Anne Carroll Moore was my best friend. I started working with her about 10 years after she joined the New York Public Library. She would ask me to help with storytimes, talk to shy children. That kind of delightful stuff. And took me with her everywhere. She told the children tales of my adventures at the library after hours and eventually wrote a couple books about me. Nicholas Knickerbocker, her famous little wooden doll.
LILICA: So you actually knew Anne Carroll Moore? In real life?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Yes. I was her little doll friend, and I spent every day with her. Eyes sparkled like pennies in a fountain. Her hair smelled of rosewater and wood pulp. Her cuticles were neat as the stitching on a--
JOY DOLO: OK, yes, we get it. But yes, it's true. Anne Carroll Moore really did have a little wooden doll named Nicholas Knickerbocker. She used him to entertain kids, and she took him pretty much everywhere she went.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: We were the best of friends. Ms. Moore brought me to meetings with important people and would use me to talk to them. Famous authors and book publishers would sometimes even send me letters and gifts. There was even a place for me at the table at her dinner parties.
LILICA: A grown up took you, a little wooden doll, everywhere and made people talk to you?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Made them talk to me? I beg your pardon, they wanted to. Are you familiar with Ms. Beatrix Potter?
JOY DOLO: Of course! She wrote the Peter Rabbit books.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Well, my dear Anne Carroll Moore was great friends with Ms. Potter. But so was I. Mw. Potter sent Anne Carroll Moore a special Christmas card she had drawn just for me. She drew Peter Rabbit asleep in bed with me, Nicholas Knickerbocker watching over him while he slept. Inside the card, Ms. Potter wrote, "Dear Ms. Carroll Moore, I do not know the home address of Nicholas. Peter and Flopsy want to wish him a very Merry Christmas."
LILICA: That's quite incredible. So how did Anne Carroll Moore know all of these famous authors and book publishers?
JOY DOLO: Oh, I can help with this question. Thanks to her work with children's libraries, Anne Carroll Moore was huge in children's publishing. It was libraries and Anne Carroll Moore that got people interested in making and buying beautiful, interesting books for children. I have a friend who helped me look into this.
BETSY BIRD: She was the most influential critic.
JOY DOLO: That's Betsy Bird. She's a librarian and expert in children's books. And back in the early days of libraries, there weren't a ton of books made for kids. Anne Carroll Moore wanted more of them, and she wanted them to be better.
LILICA: So just like her library ideas spread across the world, so did her ideas about books for kids.
JOY DOLO: Exactly.
BETSY BIRD: She was the expert. And everyone agreed. She had her own newsletter. People would come to visit her at the library and show her their books. And if she liked you, she would mention it in her newsletters and news librarians all around the country would buy them. And she would buy them herself, because she-- New York Public Library had a huge budget, so she'd put them in every branch.
JOY DOLO: There was no internet or other ways to get attention for your books. So publishers and authors would try to impress Anne.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Did I mention the gifts they sent me? One author sent a little glass swan. Another, a tiny little sewing kit. All for me, Nicholas Knickerbocker. Anne Carroll Moore's little wooden doll.
LILICA: Did gifts and visits helped authors get in good with Anne Carroll Moore?
JOY DOLO: Maybe? Probably. I mean, who doesn't love a tiny sewing kit? Either way, Betsy says authors were hoping Anne would notice their books. Because at the time, almost everyone thought she was the best judge for what books kids would like.
BETSY BIRD: She had a very distinct feeling of what made a good book.
JOY DOLO: For example, like you, Lilica, she loved fantasy. She wanted to transport kids to other worlds with reading. She loved fairy tales and Peter Rabbit. Stories that had lessons and had beautiful language. She read so many books and had so many opinions. If she liked your book, she would recommend it.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: But if she didn't, hoo, boy, she would let everyone know. When she read a book she didn't like, she would exclaim, truck! And she had a stamp for those books, too. It said, not recommended for purchase by expert.
LILICA: Truck?
JOY DOLO: It's old slang from the phrase "I have no truck with--" Like, you don't want anything to do with it. So those stiletto heels that gave me blisters and made me walk funny for days after, truck.
LILICA: Oh! Or like the soda that not only tasted bad, but didn't even have enough fizz to make a really good burp. Truck.
[LAUGHS]
JOY DOLO: But one kind of book that was instant truck for Anne, any book that was part of a series.
LILICA: What? Series are some of the most popular books for kids now. Baby-Sitters Club, Wimpy Kid, Percy Jackson. I'm obsessed with the Percy Jackson books.
JOY DOLO: It wouldn't have been allowed.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: There were some series back then that were not that well written. So Ms. Moore just said phooey to the whole lot. And there were lots of other books that were on her big no list.
BETSY BIRD: She hated Charlotte's Web. Because she felt that E.B. White was mixing fantasy talking animals with the reality of the farm. And she couldn't stand that. She was like, no, no, no, no, no, pick a lane. You're either fantasy. Or if you're reality, you can't merge the two.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Like, say, for instance, you had a talking wooden doll character based on an actual wooden doll, and this somewhat fantastical talking wooden doll was sharing real facts about a real person and was, in fact, a real historical item himself.
LILICA: You could say that.
JOY DOLO: As Anne Carroll Moore got older, she was set in her ways. But the books that people wanted to make for children were changing. They wanted books that didn't necessarily have a message. Books that were about real kids doing real things.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What fiddle-faddle. Ms. Moore and I both hated Goodnight Moon. What is that? Nothing happens. And don't even get me started on Stuart Little.
LILICA: Those books are classics now.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: A woman gives birth to a mouse? What in the ever loving world?
JOY DOLO: So what people wanted from books evolved. And eventually, Anne Carroll Moore was out of step with the times.
LILICA: But that doesn't change the fact that she basically made children's libraries what we know and love today.
BETSY BIRD: I compare the children's room of any library to the milk in a grocery store. The milk is what you want. You have to walk through the whole grocery store to get to the milk. And along the way, you see other things. The children's room is the milk. It's where everyone wants to get to eventually. It's where they're having the best time. So that's what I love about it.
[SOBS]
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: That's beautiful. Ms. Moore would be so touched.
JOY DOLO: So, wait. You were best pals with Anne Carroll Moore, met all sorts of famous authors, talked to children all over the city. How did you end up in the back of the cab?
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I don't want to talk about it.
LILICA: Well, I guess we'll never--
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Fine, I'll tell you. Twist my arm, why don't you? One of Ms. Moore's assistants was transporting me to one of my engagements. And she forgot me. In the back of the taxi.
JOY DOLO: Yes. I'm sure she forgot you.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Ms. Moore was furious. But then, she bought a replacement doll so as not to upset the children.
JOY DOLO: Yes, not to upset the children.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: But that's Ms. Moore for you. Always thinking of the children.
LILICA: Well, now that we've got you out of the back seat of the cab, where do you want to go? This was such a fascinating history, and we'd love to thank you by making your dreams come true.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: Well, I do have one dream. I've been thinking about it nonstop, actually.
JOY DOLO: Wait, let me guess. Is it to become a real boy? I bet it's to become a real boy.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: What? And have to poop? No, thank you.
LILICA: Fair.
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: My dream is to go to storytime at the library. See all the happy faces and hear the giggles. That's my dream.
LILICA: We can make that happen. Let's go!
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: This episode was written by Molly Bloom. We had help from Nico Gonzalez Wisler, Sanden Totten, Aron Woldeslassie, Anna Goldfield, Shahla Farzan, Rosie DuPont, Ruby Guthrie, and Anna Weggel. Sound design by Rachel Breeze. Theme music by Marc Sanchez. Beth Perlman is our executive producer. We had engineering help from Anna Haverman, Jess Berg, Josh Savageau, and Elliot Lanham. The executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati, Joanne Griffith, and Alex Shafford. Special thanks to Stu Bloom and Owen.
LILICA: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our Smarty Pass.
JOY DOLO: Check it out at smartypass.org.
OK, Lilica. Ready to hear the answers for the First Things First?
LILICA: Yes, let's do it.
JOY DOLO: OK. So as a reminder, we're putting the three famous children books in order, and your vote was The Cat in the Hat, The Very Hungry Caterpillar. And then If You Give a Mouse a Cookie as the most recent, yeah?
LILICA: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: All right.
LILICA: I'm so nervous.
[LAUGHS]
JOY DOLO: Well, I have to tell you that unfortunately, you were completely right.
LILICA: Oh my god, really?
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah yeah.
LILICA: Yes! Finally!
JOY DOLO: Yes, you did it. I wish we had a--
LILICA: I got them all!
JOY DOLO: First Things First award we can give you. Like a gold plaque of some kind. So The Cat in the Hat was published in 1957. And before The Cat in the Hat was published, kids used books called primers to learn how to read. And they were B-O-R-I-N-G, boring. So a publishing company asked Dr. Seuss to write a more entertaining primer, and The Cat in the Hat was born. And it was a huge hit, and it still is today.
LILICA: That's a really interesting backstory.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah. And then second, which you were right about again, was The Very Hungry Caterpillar. And that was published in 1969. Eric Carle originally planned to make this book about a hungry bookworm called Willie the Worm. Another classic. This book has been translated in over 60 languages.
LILICA: I actually love the concept of Willie the Worm, the hungry bookworm. I adore The Very Hungry Caterpillar. It was one of my favorite board books when I was small. And still, I love the art style.
JOY DOLO: Yeah. I also like that it could be shared like around the world. I mean, it's 60 languages.
LILICA: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: That's access to so many different kinds of people and so many different kinds of kids. I think that's pretty cool.
LILICA: Absolutely.
JOY DOLO: And last but not least, If You Give a Mouse a Cookie written by Laura Numeroff was published in 1985. And two years later, I was born. There have since been several more books in the series, including If You Give a Moose a Muffin and If You Give a Pig a Pancake. I think I'll write one called If You Give Joy Dolo a Donut.
[GIGGLES]
If you give Joy a Diet Coke at 4:00 PM.
[LAUGHS]
We'll be back next week with an episode all about the history of synthesizers. Those electronic machines that make amazing music.
LILICA: Thanks for listening!
[MUSIC PLAYING]
NICHOLAS KNICKERBOCKER: I'm Nicholas! Nick to the Bocker!
Transcription services provided by 3Play Media.
