Nervous: All about feelings, pt. 4

MOLLY BLOOM: Hey, everyone. Molly here. This is a special rerelease of an episode from our series on emotions. It's all about how to handle big feelings, like anxiety, nervousness, and fear. There have been so many unexpected changes in all of our lives, and a lot of us have big feelings right now.

And that's good. We should feel those feelings. We also think having facts and information can help you feel more in control. This episode should help you with that. If you want to hear the rest of our series on the science of emotion-- that includes happiness, sadness, and anger-- go to brainson.org and search "feelings." Or look for those episodes in your podcast app.

And remember, if you have any questions, ideas, drawings, or thoughts you want to share with us, we love hearing from you. You can reach us at brainson.org/contact. On with the show.

DAKARI: You're listening to Brains On, where we're serious about being curious.

VIOLET: Brains On is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation.

SANDEN TOTTEN: OK, OK, I got to remember this. Oh man, oh man. OK. Hey, HARVEY, can you use your omnipresent computer sensors to check the temp in here? It feels super hot.

[BEEPING]

HARVEY: The room is the same temperature as always. 68 degrees. But you do seem to be perspiring more than usual, particularly in your armpits.

SANDEN TOTTEN: Yeah. Well, it's opening night for Fleece Of Mind, and I'm getting pretty nervous about playing the lead part, Alpaca Jack. And I mean, it's a great part. It's a great cast, a great set. Great backstage snacks. But when I think about all those people in the audience, I get major butterflies in my stomach.

HARVEY: I do not detect any butterflies in your stomach. However, your body is home to many microbes.

SANDEN TOTTEN: Well, yeah. I know it's just a feeling.

HARVEY: My emotional information database tells me--

[BEEPS]

--that for humans, feelings are signals from the body. I do not have feelings. But I know signals are powerful. Without signals, I would not be able to hear you, nor would I have any information on your excessive perspiration.

SANDEN TOTTEN: Yeah, it is like a swamp in my pits.

HARVEY: What do you think this feeling is telling you?

SANDEN TOTTEN: I haven't really thought about that. I mean, I guess my nervousness is telling me that I care about doing a good job in the play. So maybe I should practice a little more. I mean, I can always run through the steps in the dance number for Head, Shoulders, Fleece, and Toes again.

HARVEY: Good idea. That might help channel your nervous energy into something more helpful. Now that you've thought about your feeling--

[BEEPS]

--would you like to try turning up the enjoyable part? The--

[BEEPS]

--excitement? And turn down the uncomfortable part, the--

[BEEPS]

--fear.

SANDEN TOTTEN: That might help. It might take me a bit to calm down, but the show must go on.

HARVEY: Indeed. The play is scheduled for today at 3:30 PM. You have reminders scheduled for 1:30, 1:57, 2:15, 2:49, 3:01, and 3:22.

- Oh, good. You know what? Can you set another reminder for 3:29, just in case?

HARVEY: All set.

SANDEN TOTTEN: Thanks, Harvey. OK, let's do that number again. It goes, head, shoulders, fleece, and toes. Fleece and toes. Sashay over here and sniff a rose, sniff a rose. OK, and then I do the double twirl and leap. And everybody sees me fall into a heap of grass.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Brains On from American Public Media. I'm Molly Bloom, and here with me is our co-host for our Feelings Series, Dakari from Baltimore, Maryland. Hi again, Dakari.

DAKARI: Hi.

MOLLY BLOOM: This is the final chapter of a four-part series on big feelings. We recommend starting with the first episode.

DAKARI: So far, we've tapped into happiness.

MOLLY BLOOM: Spent time with sadness.

DAKARI: And let out anger.

MOLLY BLOOM: Today, we're exploring that nagging, buzzing sense of worry known as nervousness or anxiety. And we're going to answer this question.

EVIE: Hello. My name is Evie. I live in Columbus, Georgia. My question is, why do I get anxiety?

MOLLY BLOOM: Dakari, when do you sometimes feel anxious in your life?

DAKARI: When I'm taking a test.

MOLLY BLOOM: Ooh, yes. Yeah, I feel anxious, yeah, like maybe sometimes before a Brains On taping I think I get a little nervous. But anxiety is a pretty universal feeling.

DAKARI: Here's what a listener said about what it feels like for them.

AYANA: Hola, Brains On. My name is Ayana. And when I feel anxious, my body feels like ants in my pants.

JULIA: When I am nervous, my belly button shakes. And my feet shake and my feet do a kind of triangle. And I tiptoe onto the stage.

DIEGO: If I'm going to do a speech or I'm going to sing, I might miss a couple of lines. And one time when that did happen, I got really upset. But I was able to get over it.

AMANDA: I feel like there's a hole in my stomach and my mouth gets very dry.

FINN: My hands get sweaty and I can't stop fidgeting.

KATHY: I go against the wall and try to get to the door and run away.

JASPER: Sometimes I can't stay still.

MCKENNA: When I get nervous, I get hot and tired.

NOOR: I usually get shy and I want to hide right behind my mom and dad's back. If they are there.

AMELIA: When I'm nervous, I feel tight and tense. And all I want to do is curl up into a ball.

LIAM: And if I'm really anxious or extremely nervous, I'll get goose bumps. And sometimes I'll start shaking and even feel a little nauseous.

MOLLY BLOOM: Thanks to Ayana, Julia, Diego, Amanda, Finn, Kathy, Jasper, McKenna, Noor, Amelia, and Liam for sharing those feelings. Sometimes nervousness just creeps up on us. So why do we get this way, all worked up and worried?

DAKARI: Or fidgety and frightened?

MOLLY BLOOM: All shaky and scared?

DAKARI: What is the point of anxiety.

BARBARA NATTERSON-HOROWITZ: One of the ways of thinking about why we feel the way we do is that feelings emerged in our animal ancestors to shape their behavior so that they did things that make it more likely for them to survive and have their own offspring.

MOLLY BLOOM: That's Barbara Natterson-Horowitz. She teaches evolutionary biology at Harvard and medicine at UCLA.

DAKARI: She's also working on a book called Wildhood, all about adolescence in the animal kingdom.

MOLLY BLOOM: She says to understand why we get anxious, it helps to start with our animal ancestors.

DAKARI: So imagine you are an ancient mammal.

MOLLY BLOOM: Like our great-great-great super long ago animal relative.

[VARIOUS ANIMAL NOISES]

MAMMAL: I'm small, I'm furry. I have a four-chambered heart and these cool glands that make milk. Yep, I'm a mammal.

MOLLY BLOOM: Now let's say for whatever reason, you are a mammal born with zero fear or anxiety.

MAMMAL: High cliffs? No sweat. Dark caves? Not a problem. The harsh judgment of my peers?

[CHUCKLES]

I could care less.

DAKARI: This life might seem pretty cool, but Barbara says it has some serious downsides.

BARBARA NATTERSON-HOROWITZ: One really big threat for wild animals are predators. And it's really important to have fear if you're a wild animal. Because if you don't have fear, you're not going to react properly when danger is present.

REPTILE: Oh, hello, little mammal.

MAMMAL: Hi, monstrous giant fanged reptile thingy. Nice day for a walk, am I right?

REPTILE: Indeed. Or it would be if I didn't have this pesky twig stuck in my teeth. Oh, it's so bothersome. I wish I could get it out.

MAMMAL: Whoa, seriously? My hobby is amateur dental work. Why don't I climb in there and see if I can get it loose?

[CREAKS]

Wow. It sure is big and dark in here. Now where is that twig?

[CHOMPS]

[GULPS]

REPTILE: Never mind. It's suddenly all better. Now for a stroll after a nice satisfying meal.

[BURPS]

Oh, a milk burp. Mammals are such interesting snacks.

DAKARI: Obviously, being free of fear didn't work out too well for that mammal.

MOLLY BLOOM: Which means it won't go on to reproduce, and it won't pass on its lack of anxiety to future generations.

DAKARI: Yeah. In this case, anxiety would have been a warning bell. A little alarm yelling danger, danger. That fanged reptile thingy looks hungry.

[GRUMBLES]

MOLLY BLOOM: An anxious mammal, one that's constantly scanning for dangerous situations, that mammal is more likely to run from a predator and survive long enough to have kids.

DAKARI: And if those kids have a healthy fear of danger, then you might live long enough to pass that story on to their kids, too.

MOLLY BLOOM: And on and on down the generations until eventually, pretty much every descendant of that ancient mammal has a little built in fear alarm as part of their brain hardware.

DAKARI: Including us humans.

BARBARA NATTERSON-HOROWITZ: Most modern humans don't really encounter predators as a big threat. But we still have that biology. Right, that biology was there for so many hundreds of millions of years, that it doesn't just go away. So we still have that physiology.

MOLLY BLOOM: There are still plenty of things for that healthy fear alarm to warn us about.

[SIREN]

FEAR ALARM: Danger. We're high up and we could fall. Watch out. That car is coming at us fast. Oh no, some huge beast is coming right for us.

[MEOWS]

[SCREAMS]

MOLLY BLOOM: But sometimes we feel anxious over things that don't threaten our physical health in the same way.

DAKARI: Like a test. Or we get anxious about what our friends think of us.

MOLLY BLOOM: Or how we'll perform in an epic play about an alpaca superhero.

DAKARI: Totally.

MOLLY BLOOM: In those cases, it's still the same built in alarm making a scan for potential threats, says Barbara. But the situations have changed.

BARBARA NATTERSON-HOROWITZ: There's two ways of understanding it. One way is that it's like a muscle that wants to be used for something. And if it can't be used for what it's evolved for, it gets used in a way that's not as productive. And maybe that's some of the fear that we feel.

MOLLY BLOOM: So without constantly having to worry about threats like predators, our fear alarm might decide to warn us about smaller threats.

[SIREN]

FEAR ALARM: Watch out, you might fail math. Oh no, those socks don't match. Oh dear, what if I read this bad?

DAKARI: Barbara says the other way to understand anxiety is to remember that people are social animals.

MOLLY BLOOM: That means we live in groups and we depend on others to help us survive.

DAKARI: It also means that we tend to judge each other to see a group members fit in. And we do that a lot.

BARBARA NATTERSON-HOROWITZ: For modern humans, particularly kids who are in middle school and high school, if they're on social media, for example, they are being assessed and evaluated constantly. They go to school and they're being evaluated academically. They go on to the playground. And kids are seeing whether they're good in sports. Kids may be looking at what they're wearing, whether they have the right tennis shoes. How many likes they're getting on their Instagram feed.

And it goes on and on. And the brain, the social brain network that we inherited from our animal ancestors, which evolved to deal with assessment periodically, is now just overloaded.

FEAR ALARM: What if they don't like my shirt? What if they're all talking about me? Is my breath still a problem? What if my breath is still a problem?

MOLLY BLOOM: Luckily, there are things we can do to calm down these internal alarms when they wig out. We'll get to that in a bit. But first, a very unthreatening--

[MYSTERY SOUND CUE]

AUDIO TRACK: Mystery sound.

MOLLY BLOOM: Here it is.

[RATTLING]

What is your guess, Dakari?

DAKARI: Like somebody's going to a box of toy parts.

MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent guess. But we're going to be back with the answer in just a bit.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

The new season of Smash Boom Best is out right now. It is so exciting.

DAKARI: Each episode pitch two cool things against each other.

MOLLY BLOOM: And debaters use jokes, stories, and facts to argue for their side in hopes of convincing our kid judges that they are truly the Smash Boom Best.

DAKARI: This season, we're tackling matchups. Like robots versus aliens, rice versus noodles, Grand Canyon versus Mount Everest.

MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And we even have a sneak peek of that one at the end of this episode. Listeners, who do you think would win in the battle of the Grand Canyon versus Mount Everest? If you've got a debate idea, send it to us at brainson.org/contact.

DAKARI: You can also send questions, mystery sounds, and drawings. Go to brainson.org/contact.

MOLLY BLOOM: That's where this listener question came from.

ALEX: Hi. My name is Alex. And my question is, why are T-rex arms so short?

DAKARI: We'll hear the answer to that in the Moment of Um at the end of this show.

MOLLY BLOOM: Plus then we'll hear that Smash Boom Best preview.

DAKARI: So keep listening.

You're listening to Brains On from American Public Media. I'm Dakari.

MOLLY BLOOM: And I'm Molly. And today, we're talking anxiety. Like we've said before, feelings don't just live in your head. They live in your body, too.

DAKARI: And that brings us to this question.

ESTHER: Hi. My name is Esther from Guadalajara, Mexico. And my question is, why do we get butterflies in the stomach when we get nervous?

MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, that's a funny feeling.

DAKARI: Last episode, we talked about what happened when our brain senses potential danger. It sends a message to your body telling it to fight, flee, or freeze.

MOLLY BLOOM: The same thing is happening here. Anger is more of the fight part of that stress response, and anxiety is more of the flee or freeze part. Shane Bierma is a psychologist at Louisiana State University School of Medicine, and she helped explain how the fight, flight, or freeze response can give us butterflies.

SHANE BIERM: What happens is all of your blood flow starts getting diverted away from your stomach. It starts going into your muscles and your arms and your legs so you can run away from a situation. And it slows down your digestion. And this reduction in blood flow through your gut, that's what's really creating that butterflies feeling in the pit of your stomach.

DAKARI: So the butterfly feeling is really just a side-effect of your body getting ready for action.

MOLLY BLOOM: Right. And that brings us back to the mystery sound. Let's hear it again. And before you answer, I'm going to give you a clue. It's something that can help you cool down. So here is that sound.

[RATTLING]

OK, Dakari. With that cool down hint in mind, do you have any new guesses?

DAKARI: It makes me think of a cooler full of ice.

MOLLY BLOOM: Very excellent guess. And you are right on. That is the sound of ice coming out of an ice maker. So really good. You have really good ears, Dakari. Nice job.

DAKARI: Thank you.

MOLLY BLOOM: Besides being great in lemonade, there's a reason that we're talking about ice today. Sometimes that fight, flight, freeze reaction can be so intense that it makes us feel panic. But since this response is from your body, you can work with your body to help stop it.

KAZ NELSON: Your brain and your body are so connected. They're wired with nerves throughout. And so there really is not a distinction between your thoughts, feelings, and your body. It's all the same thing.

DAKARI: That's Kaz Nelson. She's a psychiatrist at the University of Minnesota.

KAZ NELSON: This nerve system that I mentioned that wires your brain to your heart and your lungs and the rest of your body really has two sets of wiring. You can think of these two sets of wiring as the gas on a car that's really going to pump up the stress response. And the other set of nerves is really like a brake that slows down the response.

So when your body is automatically revving up, throwing gas into the system, what you can do is actually stimulate the brakes. And a very effective way of stimulating those nerves that put brakes on the anxiety or fear system is to stimulate a nerve called the vagal nerve. And wonderful way to do that is to actually put your face in ice water or put an ice pack on your face right under your eyes. What that does is it stimulates a reflex called the mammalian dive reflex.

MOLLY BLOOM: That's a response that all mammals have when they get dunked in really cold water.

DAKARI: It makes your nerves slow down a bit.

MOLLY BLOOM: So if you're feeling panic, splashing your face with truly icy water or putting an ice pack on your face can help calm you down enough for you to engage with that logic part of your brain again. Then you can use some of the tools we've talked about in other episodes.

DAKARI: Like noticing things around you, taking a break or thinking about what you're feeling this way.

KAZ NELSON: The other thing that you can do is breathe in for four counts and out for eight counts. Because every time you breathe in, the set of nerves that puts the gas on the system is a little bit stimulated. Every time you breathe out, the brakes are a little bit stimulated. So if you're breathing out twice as long as you're breathing in, you're going to influence this body system in a way to overall put the brakes on things.

Now combine the ice on the face with this breathing technique, and anybody can get out of any fear response that's happening inappropriately and take charge of that biology. It's very effective. Unless you're not a mammal, it might not work so well. But all mammals can do this.

MOLLY BLOOM: Too bad for you, fretful fish friends and anxious amphibians. But Dakari, we can give it a try. You want to do it?

DAKARI: Sure.

MOLLY BLOOM: All right, let's try it. So let's go in for 4. 1, 2, 3, 4. And out for 8. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Let's do it one more time. In for 4. 2, 3, 4. Out for 8. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. How'd that feel for you, Dakari?

DAKARI: I feel relaxed.

MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah I actually did. I had to do some public speaking recently, and I tried this breathing technique and it really helped me feel less nervous. It was really cool.

AUDIO TRACK: Brains, Brains, Brains On.

MOLLY BLOOM: Anxiety, like every emotion, is a signal. It's a message your body and brain are sending you.

DAKARI: When you're having strong feelings, stop and ask yourself, what are my feelings trying to tell me?

MOLLY BLOOM: But if that message is coming in too loudly and making you feel overwhelmed, there are plenty of things you can do to feel balanced again. Speaking of which, it's time to hear from Mallika Chopra.

DAKARI: She wrote a book called Just Breathe, which is a guide to meditation for kids.

MOLLY BLOOM: If you want to hear more about what scientists are learning about meditation--

DAKARI: And how Mallika and I have used meditation and yoga to manage our feelings--

MOLLY BLOOM: Go check out the first three episodes of this series.

DAKARI: But now, Mallika's back to tell us how meditation can help with big feelings of anxiety.

MOLLY BLOOM: And she shared this meditation to try if you're ever feeling anxious.

MALLIKA CHOPRA: So when we are anxious or stressed or nervous about something, we often feel it in our stomachs, like butterflies in our stomach. So a meditation that I recommend is something called Blow Those Butterflies Away. This meditation is super simple. You take a deep breath in. And you feel the air coming in your stomach. You envision all of that nervous energy as colorful patterned butterflies.

And then you blow out forcefully from your nose. And as you blow out, you just envision the butterflies flying away. And so this is a good way to just use your breath to let that nervous energy out.

MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, hey, Dakari, look at the clock. Sanden's show is about to start. I am so excited to see Fleece of Mind. Come on, let's go find Sanden and wish him luck.

DAKARI: Hey Marc, want to come with us?

MARC SANCHEZ: Yeah, OK. I guess so.

MOLLY BLOOM: Sanden said we'd be able to find him back here before the show starts. Oh. Oh, there he is.

DAKARI: Sanden.

SANDEN TOTTEN: Oh, hey, guys. I'm just doing some breathing to help me calm down. I am so excited. But hey, Marc, I need to say something to you before I go on stage.

MARC SANCHEZ: What? You want me to film the performance so you can send it to your grandpa, your mom, and all your friends?

SANDEN TOTTEN: No. Molly's already got that covered, thank you.

MOLLY BLOOM: Yep, on it.

SANDEN TOTTEN: I just wanted to say, I'm sorry, Marc.

MARC SANCHEZ: Oh.

SANDEN TOTTEN: I was so excited to get the part that I didn't take a minute to stop and think about how you would feel after the auditions. I mean, I know you really wanted the part, too. And it must have been really hard for you watching me through rehearsals, making my grass smoothies, hearing me talk on and on about how fun this all was. That wasn't very cool of me.

MARC SANCHEZ: Thanks, Sanden. That means a lot. And I'm sorry that I didn't talk to you about it. If I just told you how I felt at the beginning, I probably wouldn't have gotten so mad.

SANDEN TOTTEN: Aw, buddy. You're the best. Come here for a hug. Come here for a hug, yeah.

HARVEY: Sanden, this is your 3:29 reminder. The show starts in one minute.

SANDEN TOTTEN: Whoa, whoa. I got to take my place, guys. All right, see you after the show.

DAKARI: Break a leg, Alpaca Jack.

MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah, knock him dead.

MARC SANCHEZ: You got this, buddy!

DAKARI: Let's get to our seats.

MOLLY BLOOM: You're a good friend, Marc.

MARC SANCHEZ: Yeah, I am.

[APPLAUSE]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

(SINGING) Everywhere I graze, I know there is danger on my back. Maybe a ninja or a ghost or a pirate from the coast, or a gang of angry cats. I just want to live a life free from attack. They all want my super brain. Soon they'll come to fear my name. I am Alpaca Jack. And the people that I meet are always very, very sweet--

[MUSIC PLAYING]

MOLLY BLOOM: We're all wired to feel nervous sometimes.

DAKARI: That's because anxiety and fear have actually helped animals to survive for a long time.

MOLLY BLOOM: The things that make us nervous now are pretty different from the stuff that scared ancient mammals.

DAKARI: But our bodies still respond in similar ways.

MOLLY BLOOM: That's why being nervous can give you butterflies in your stomach or make you sweat.

DAKARI: Calming down your body can help calm down your mind.

MOLLY BLOOM: That can mean slow breathing or splashing icy cold water on your face.

DAKARI: Once your body is calmer, it's easier to turn on the thinking part of your brain to decide what to do. And that's true for a lot of emotions, not just nervousness.

MOLLY BLOOM: Feelings are important signals. It's good to pay attention to them. And you can decide how to handle those feelings.

DAKARI: That's it for this episode and this series on feelings. Brains On is produced by Marc Sanchez, Sanden Totten, and Molly Bloom.

MOLLY BLOOM: This series was also produced by Menaka Wilhelm and Sam Choo, with support from Call to Mind, APM's mental health initiative. We had production help from Hannah Harris Green, Christina Lopez, Elyssa Dudley, Phyllis Fletcher, and Jackie Kim. And we had engineering help from Veronica Rodriguez and Cameron Wiley. Special thanks to Nadia Fitzgerald, Andres Gonzalez, and Jamar Peete from the Holistic Life Foundation. Kaz Nelson, Denzel Belen, Melanie Ellsworth, and Rosie DuPont.

DAKARI: You can send us questions, mystery sounds, or drawings at brainson.org/contact.

MOLLY BLOOM: Brains On is a nonprofit public media podcast. Your donations help us keep making new episodes. You can support the show at brainson.org/donate.

DAKARI: And before we go, it's time for a Moment of Um.

AUDIO TRACK: Uh. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um.

ALEX: Why are T-rex arms so short?

BHART-ANJAN BHULLAR: My name's Bhart-Anjan Bhullar, and I'm a professor of paleontology at Yale University, and also curator of paleontology at the Yale Peabody Museum of Natural History. I study the ancient history of life using fossils, like those of dinosaurs.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Tyrannosaurus Rex was a very large meat-eating dinosaur with very small arms. It's true. But we think that part of the reason why Tyrannosaurus had such small arms is simply because it was so huge and monstrous. And what we see with meat-eating dinosaurs in general is that the bigger they get, actually the smaller their arms are.

The other thing, though, that Tyrannosaurus and its relatives did was that they really made their heads gigantic and made their teeth huge. And they were obviously using their mouths and their bites as their way to bring down prey. And this is different from other meat eating dinosaurs that seem to have used their teeth and the giant claws on their hands. But we think that Tyrannosaurs went all in with their mouths and their teeth. And so in a way, they sacrificed their arms to maximize the killing power of their bites.

It's the story of the evolution of one part of an animal at the expense of another. If evolution would have allowed them to lose their arms entirely, they might have done that, too. We don't think that they were doing anything with those arms. But they may have had to keep the arms because there are a lot of muscles that attach to the upper part of the arms that support the head and the shoulder and other parts of the body. And so the fact that they even still have arms isn't necessarily indicative of the arms having a function, of their doing anything with them. But rather of some other parts of the body that evolutionarily were dependent upon having arms.

AUDIO TRACK: Um. Um. Um.

MOLLY BLOOM: Tiny arms are not going to stop me from giving everybody on this list a high five. These are the listeners who send in the questions, drawings, and mystery sounds that keep our show going strong. And they are the newest additions to the Brains Honor Roll.

[LISTING HONOR ROLL]

AUDIO TRACK: Brains Honor Roll. High fives.

MOLLY BLOOM: We'll be back soon with more answers to your questions.

DAKARI: Thanks for listening.

MOLLY BLOOM: Here's your sneak peek of Smash Boom Best.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

AUDIO TRACK: Best. Boom. Smash. Smash. Boom. Best.

MOLLY BLOOM: All right, our colossal canyon and our mondo mountain are playing hardball. So get ready, because it's time for our imaginative challenge--

AUDIO TRACK: Micro Round.

[DINGS]

MOLLY BLOOM: This week's Micro Round challenge is a sonnet slam. Each contestant has been instructed to prepare a sonnet about their side in advance of this debate. Sonnet means "little song" in Italian, and it's a 14-line poem. Shaina went first in the last round. So Kasha, we'll have you take the lead in this one. Let's hear your terrific tribute to the great Mount Everest.

KASHA: Grand mountain, you inspire me to write. I love the way you tower over land, testing hikers all day and through the night. 60 million years, you remain and stand. Let me compare you to a Grand Canyon? Those boring rocks are just decomposing.

You are a daredevil's dream companion. You are more imposing, made from bulldozing. How are you greater? Let me count the ways. I love your noble, cold, snowy tall build. Conquering you takes more than 30 days. So many people's bucket list you filled. There's nothing greater than Mount Everest. Anyone who agrees is the cleverest.

MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very nicely done.

SHAINA: That was good.

MOLLY BLOOM: Shaina, let's hear your rapturous rhymes about the Grand Canyon.

SHAINA: I'll channel Shakespeare. OK, here we go.

The sun rises and lights up the red walls. Juniper, sagebrush, and old pinion pine. Over in the trees, a spotted owl calls. The rocks, although dusty, all seem to shine. Empty canyon water carving through space. The quiet, it will leave you so breathless. Feel peace in this magical tranquil place. The view so still, it almost seems endless.

Stroll through history with proper footwear. And if you don't want to walk the whole way, you can always write a donkey down there. There are hooves on the dirt path, clip clop and splay. This ancient canyon so deep and so wide, the world's population can fit inside.

MOLLY BLOOM: Whoa that was--

KASHA: Deep.

MOLLY BLOOM: That was some--

KASHA: Deep literally.

SHAINA: That was pretty deep.

KASHA: That was really-- that was-- wow, that was really nice.

ELENA: I'm just going to say, those donkeys are weak. They're not as stable as you think they are. At least on Mount Everest, you have to use your own two feet to walk. You don't get help from an animal that you force to help you.

SHAINA: The donkeys are having fun. They like it.

ELENA: Oh, did you ask the donkeys?

KASHA: Yeah, did you ask them?

SHAINA: They like it. They're my friends.

MOLLY BLOOM: Elena, listeners at home, take a moment to consider both sonnets.

ELENA: Wow.

MOLLY BLOOM: It's hard to decide. They were both very beautiful. Excellent rhymes.

KASHA: They were deep.

MOLLY BLOOM: They were deep and tall and wide and grand. All the things. Can you award a point to whoever you think did the Smash Boom Best?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

(SINGING) You're the Smash Boom Best. Put them through the test. You're the Smash Boom Best. Better than the rest. You're the Smash Boom Best. You're the Smash Boom Best.

MOLLY BLOOM: Subscribe to Smash Boom Best in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get to hear the entire debate.